door knocking knuckles

[FiveFrameSwing]

I think it was 2007 that Don Slaught introduced the new grip and has since proved it in test labs at UCLA. I then started trying to swing the bat by placing the bat in my bottom hand where the fingers join at the palm of the hand and then placing the bat in my top hand about ½ to ¾ of inch away from the line where the fingers join the palm of the hand towards the thumb.

When I looked at my grip it was the top hand door knocker knuckles lining up with the face knuckles of the bottom hand.

Bold above ..... what you describe here is having the knuckle orientation be a 'result' of directing efforts elsewhere.

This is what I mean when I say that one's knuckle orientation should be a 'result' of efforts placed elsewhere.

 

[Steve Huff]

Bold above ..... what you describe here is having the knuckle orientation be a 'result' of directing efforts elsewhere.

This is what I mean when I say that one's knuckle orientation should be a 'result' of efforts placed elsewhere.

Would knuckles properly aligned allow for say, a nice power "V" shape in the elbows? Would over rotating those bottom hand knuckles promote something different? I think so. Why take a grip so that you have to fix it after you assess your "V" position? Why not just take a good grip to begin with and establish a foundation for that "V"? Again, he asked about knuckles, and you said the grip was over emphasized. How many girls do you see with goofy grips. I can say that virtually 100% of the new programs in Europe have this issue, and it was the same here among younger girls. So I teach it!

And I like that Epstein visual of the wedding ring!

 

[Wellphyt]

From memory, Epstein documented in his book a recommended knuckle orientation that did not have the door knocking knuckles aligned .... but instead had the door knocking knuckles of the top hand aligned with where a wedding ring would be worn on the bottom hand.

Epstein used the alignment you describe above when he played. I have always understood Epstein to be saying in his training videos that aligning the knocking knuckles can benefit kids during the teaching process with slotting the back elbow. I never understood him to be saying it's an absolute.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

Steve, this may seem like splitting hairs to some … but I view it differently … and come at this from an almost opposite perspective.

Rather, I believe the knuckle alignment should accommodate both the grip on the bat, as well as the forearm relationship. That will pretty much dictate the ‘resulting’ knuckle alignment … and I’m not willing to compromise either for the simple notion that the knuckles should be aligned in a particular orientation thereafter. My actual grip is very important in terms of my throwing of the barrel … and I’m not willing to compromise on that … at least not without a sound explanation with supporting data. As for the knuckle orientation that Epstein documented (door knocking knuckles aligned with the wedding ring) … that’s pretty close to the result I realize when I satisfy my objectives of how I hold the bat in my hands, as well as forearm relationship. The way I go about it, the knuckle orientation is a ‘result’ of what I teach/promote. Could I teach knuckle alignment instead? Sure, I’ve done just that in the past, but the resulting grip and forearm orientation was not always what I desired … it can work, but it doesn’t always give the ideal solution.

 

[Stever]

The grip has to be taught, especially if working with kids ages 8-50yrs old . A poor grip can ruin the entire swing and results. Kids need to be shown and taught the correct grip, they will not stumble upon it on their own. Also, this is most often overlooked element of the swing, you must not forget to check their grips often.

Door Knocking Knuckles Alignment
Initially I would teach this hand alignment until they can swing palm up/palm down to extension consistently. The natural tendency is for kids to roll the wrists early, and this knuckle alignment is your best bet to fix that.

Split the Knuckles Alignment
It seems that some are calling it the Epstein grip, but the more advanced grip would have the top hand door knocking knuckles aligned in between the bottom hand sets of knuckles. This grip will allow you to stay on plane with the pitch more easily, and will still allow you to get to extension palm up/palm down once you know what it feels like.

Box Grip Alignment
This is a rotational hitting grip alignment. I dont recommend this grip, but some will.

 

[Steve Huff]

Steve, this may seem like splitting hairs to some … but I view it differently … and come at this from an almost opposite perspective.

Rather, I believe the knuckle alignment should accommodate both the grip on the bat, as well as the forearm relationship. That will pretty much dictate the ‘resulting’ knuckle alignment … and I’m not willing to compromise either for the simple notion that the knuckles should be aligned in a particular orientation thereafter. My actual grip is very important in terms of my throwing of the barrel … and I’m not willing to compromise on that … at least not without a sound explanation with supporting data. As for the knuckle orientation that Epstein documented (door knocking knuckles aligned with the wedding ring) … that’s pretty close to the result I realize when I satisfy my objectives of how I hold the bat in my hands, as well as forearm relationship. The way I go about it, the knuckle orientation is a ‘result’ of what I teach/promote. Could I teach knuckle alignment instead? Sure, I’ve done just that in the past, but the resulting grip and forearm orientation was not always what I desired … it can work, but it doesn’t always give the ideal solution.

I teach the knuckles during the stance phase. I try to get proper balance. You remember Laura and how upright her upper body is in the videos? And also how upright her head was? So I teach the knuckles and every kid is then checked and checked again for elbows and hands to shoulder orientation. During the swing phases I then check for slot and keeping the hands stacked. Who was it recently that's daughter had the back elbow slightly ahead of her hands before release?

I don't ignore the other elements, I just go over it as a basic unless the girl is already well developed. In Europe there are only about 7 countries that you don't have to start from the feet. Netherlands, Italy, Czech Republic, Russia, Spain, France, and perhaps Germany. It goes down hill from there. So I have to start from the ground up, not just look at elbows, and throwing the bat. If I have to do that with upper teens and adults, what about kids? I think you can talk about throwing the bat when you walk between the chalk with 18U TB teams, but what about 12U?

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

The grip has to be taught, especially if working with kids ages 8-50yrs old . A poor grip can ruin the entire swing and results. Kids need to be shown and taught the correct grip, they will not stumble upon it on their own. Also, this is most often overlooked element of the swing, you must not forget to check their grips often.

Door Knocking Knuckles Alignment
Initially I would teach this hand alignment until they can swing palm up/palm down to extension consistently. The natural tendency is for kids to roll the wrists early, and this knuckle alignment is your best bet to fix that.

Split the Knuckles Alignment
It seems that some are calling it the Epstein grip, but the more advanced grip would have the top hand door knocking knuckles aligned in between the bottom hand sets of knuckles. This grip will allow you to stay on plane with the pitch more easily, and will still allow you to get to extension palm up/palm down once you know what it feels like.

Box Grip Alignment
This is a rotational hitting grip alignment. I dont recommend this grip, but some will.

Here's the thing ..... the knuckle orientation is not the grip. It is very possible to have a 'terrible grip' with whatever 'knuckle orientation' you push. Yet I do agree that the 'grip' is important ..... but I'm with Jim ... I'm not big on pushing the knuckle orientation and would rather it be a 'result'.

 

[pstein]

I don't care about how the knuckles are aligned. I care that the wrists and hands are in the proper position. Ted Williams says to put the bat on the plate, and then move it up to your shoulder. If you do that, you'll have the wrists and forearms in the proper position.

 

[Steve Huff]

Here's the thing ..... the knuckle orientation is not the grip. It is very possible to have a 'terrible grip' with whatever 'knuckle orientation' you push. Yet I do agree that the 'grip' is important ..... but I'm with Jim ... I'm not big on pushing the knuckle orientation and would rather it be a 'result'.

If somehow you come to it, then so be it. I agree that it isn't exactly the same. But I teach both at the same time. I want to make sure the grip is not in the palms, and in the fingers. I want bend in the wrists.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

If somehow you come to it, then so be it. I agree that it isn't exactly the same. But I teach both at the same time. I want to make sure the grip is not in the palms, and in the fingers. I want bend in the wrists.

Same here in terms of wanting the grip in the base of the fingers (griper fingers) and not in the palms. As for the bend of the wrists ... I'm very picky on that ... I especially want the feel of dynamic bending in the top hand wrist, a sort of 'lag' if you will ... and I want that to 'throw' the barrel.