Catcher's Infractions - Little League vs. NFHS

[PlayPerfect]

Fair enough...R3, or R2 and R3 and the pitch is a ball, and the catcher's throw goes to first after the pitch. There is NO WAY that is a play on a runner who is specifically prohibited from running in reverse direction.

 

[Comp]

Dumb move on catcher to throw behind a lead runner, but where in the rules is it specifically prohibited from running in reverse?

 

[PlayPerfect]

Dumb move on catcher to throw behind a lead runner, but where in the rules is it specifically prohibited from running in reverse?

NFHS Rule 8-4 Art. 6 - "A runner shall not run bases in reverse order either to confuse the fielders or to make a travesty of the game." Ball is dead, runner is out.

I think if you do throw at first when there is not a runner and its not after an out ... its a catcher infraction. A ball should be awarded to the batter.

 

[Comp]

That rule is about making a travesty of the game or ru ning in reverse to confuse the defense. It does not make it illegal to run in reverse direction in all situations.

 

[PlayPerfect]

That rule is about making a travesty of the game or ru ning in reverse to confuse the defense. It does not make it illegal to run in reverse direction in all situations.

Nice job rewording the rule. There are times when it is necessary to run reverse order and it isn't after a pitch is caught by a catcher. EVER. If a runner on third runs to second on the release of a pitch...that ump better call it a dead ball and declare the runner out. WOULD YOU PLEASE AGREE WITH THAT?

 

[Comp]

I didn't reword any rule. It specifically states running in reverse to make a travesty of the game or confuse the defense.

Here is an example I have actually seen several times over the years. Runner on first ground ball and play is made on batter runner for an out. Runner on 2nd thinking it is the 3rd out leaves base and heads back toward 1st base dugout. Runner realizes mistake and is closer to first than second so proceeds back to first safely. Completely legal.

 

[PlayPerfect]

You're right. You didn't reword it. You re-quoted it. As long as your runner didn't pass second in any way shape or form, that runner can go back to first. But if they did pass second, you know they could be called out on appeal if they didn't retouch second on their way to first. But please..address my original question now that we have made it to page 2....

3-1 count, no outs, no one on base or, R2 and/or R3. Pitcher throws a strike, catcher catches the ball....thinking its a strike three..fires it to first to begin around the horn. How should a NFHS or NCAA umpire handle that?

 

[Comp]

The rule makes no requirement to actually throw to a base a runner is at or going to, it simply says to play on a base runner. If the catcher did it, possibly it was an attempt to draw a runner off base and get an out that way. That is a legitimate play, not a smart one but legitimate.

 

[PlayPerfect]

Comp - you must be an umpire, because you totally created a situation that was protest proof. And its one of the problems with umpires in our sport right now. You try to imagine what a player mustve been thinking to make it a judgment case instead of an admitted lack of knowledge on the rules. That doesn't mean your dumb or incompetent. The rules are vast and varied. Youre human. and so am I. I've NEVER coached a perfect game and rarely have I run a perfect practice. But I can at least admit it when I did not know something. Like carrying the bat to first. . You said "where in the rules does it specifically prohibit running in reverse". I told you and you responded as if you already knew that one...Curious why you asked if you already knew. and Im also curious why you said "with no one on base" when the rules never say a word about that. You bend it to imply well of course they could throw to first to "try to pull a runner off third" but you know as well as I, the reason they require returning the ball directly to the pitcher is the SAME REASON FOR THE LOOK BACK RULE. Without it we would have essentially the North Carolina four corner offense stall running the clock out to win a game without actually playing the sport. I would protest the game. The UIC would side with your convoluted response. You would wiggle out of it. Next time you worked my game, I might just play catch between first and home for an hour until the time limit ran. My team would win. You would be boxed into a call you earlier misused. The girls, the spectators and the sport would lose and the lacrosse league would be 8 kids bigger the next spring.

So let me reallllly simplify it and re state the original question. NO ONE on base....3-1 count. Catcher catches a called second strike and guns it to 1st FOR WHATEVER REASON. Would you award the batter ball four? In NFHS, USSSA, NSA or whatever rule book you are familiar with? Thanks for officiating. We need you to have a game.

 

[Comp]

I believe it has been abundantly clear from my responses, no, I am not going to call the rule infraction if there are any runners on base. For that matter, I have never in any game I have officiated had a catcher violate the rule. I have seen it called exactly twice, once in a club ball game in the Louisville tournament in Colorado, and once in a college game. I have seen exactly 2 other instances where it should have been called the first time, and the catcher ejected the second time for doing it purposely to walk the batter without throwing all 4 pitches. Also a college game that was on national TV.

Go ahead and have your catcher play catch with 1st to kill time. You are aware about the rule for intentionally delaying or hastening a game aren't you?