BU positioning

[Country Boy]

Have had this question for many years. Am finally putting it out to a large group so someone can enlighten me with the reasoning.

With a 2 Umpire crew, BU goes to between 2B and 3B when runners are on. I would estimate 80% of all IF plays are still made at 1B. So why does the BU rotate away from the position where most plays are? PU should be able to handle 3B and Home, in my mind.

This would be like positioning all Football refs behind the offense. It's the opposite direction from where most plays (penalties) occur.

I am sure there is a logical reason. It's just not occuring to my little brain. Help?

 

[Sweet Lou]

I am sure there is a logical reason. It's just not occuring to my little brain. Help?

I could be wrong but I think the logic is it is still realtively easy to call the force play at 1B but you are in a much better position for a potential tag play at 2nd and or 3rd by positioning between 2B & 3B, though perhaps an actual ump could give a full explaination.

 

[Comp]

BU goes between 1st and 2nd with runner on 1st, and between 2nd and 3rd with runners on 2nd or 3rd in a 2 mans system. The base umpire moves into position with regard to the lead runner. You are much more likely to have tag plays at 2nd and 3rd which the plate umpire would have very little chance of seeing with any accuracy. Especially a pick of attempt of a runner diving back into 3rd. Calls at 1st base are very seldom tag plays and is usually just a question of did the ball beat the runner or not. You still have a good view of that from 3rd base side. The only thing you cant see is a pulled foot, and that is why the plate umpire is suppose to hold position and watch initially for a pulled foot at 1st, then move to make any possible secondary throw calls.

 

[Umpire]

Have had this question for many years. Am finally putting it out to a large group so someone can enlighten me with the reasoning.

With a 2 Umpire crew, BU goes to between 2B and 3B when runners are on. I would estimate 80% of all IF plays are still made at 1B. So why does the BU rotate away from the position where most plays are? PU should be able to handle 3B and Home, in my mind.

This would be like positioning all Football refs behind the offense. It's the opposite direction from where most plays (penalties) occur.

I am sure there is a logical reason. It's just not occuring to my little brain. Help?

I think that you bring up a valid point. Most umpires are trained the same way with the same positioning and they don't really ever question what they are told. This is good to the extent that it creates consistency in mechanics. It's bad in the sense that it doesn't allow for what I call a "thinking umpire." Or, even if it does, it all but wipes out any deviation from the standard mechanic for fear that they may get a demerit.

The level of play in softball has increased dramatically over the last 15 years. The number of close plays on steals and the number of pickoff attempts don't even compare to what they used to be.

Though not endorsed anywhere else other than my state association (as far as I have seen), there is an alternative starting position. It position focuses on percentages rather than the remote chance off a pickoff at 3rd base. The position puts the umpire on the 1st base side of 2nd base with a runner on 3rd base or runners on 1st & 3rd base. There are a few other times. The idea is the same that you brought up - most plays go to 1st base. This mechanic is NOT recommended in all cases. Rather, we let the umpire read the type of game and the game situation. In some sections in the state, stealing is not allowed. That means that pickoff attempts rarely if ever happen. So there isn't much need to put the umpire near 3rd base. Common sense would say that if stealing isn't even allowed, the odds of picking a runner off are as good as winning the lotto. Obviously, in higher level play, it would be better for the umpire to be in better position for pickoff attempts. But umpires are granted the right to use discretion and figure out what is best for the particular situation.

As yourself this, how many bases loaded, full count plays go to 3rd base? Now think how many go to 1st base...

***WARNING - not a standard mechanic. Check with your UIC before deviating.***

 

[Country Boy]

Thank you. That is much as I supposed. In my opinion, the positioning is for the play that might happen every 10- 20 games instead of the play that happens every inning. Yes, the play at first should be a relatively easy force play. But there are middle infielders and base runners running around that can complicate the issue.
In our game last night, I had to laugh. They had a runner on 3B with 1 out. The BU was located behind 3B. Ground ball to the P and she went for the out at 1B. So there was an Umpire standing at both 3B and HP for a potential play, but the ball went to 1B. BU had to work to get a view due to the P. The right call was made but it could have been much easier if both Umpires weren't positioned to watch the runner at 3B.
Oh well. Not a big deal. But it's off my mind now.

 

[BretMan]

In our game last night, I had to laugh. They had a runner on 3B with 1 out. The BU was located behind 3B...

Okay then, there's your problem right there. In the two-umpire system, the base umpire should have been behind the shortstop, not behind third base- ever. Not only would this increase his distance from the play, but it would put several players between him and first base, as well as give him a worse angle to see the play.

It sounds like you had a very inexperienced base umpire. That might mean you'll get goofy calls no matter where he's standing.

 

[BretMan]

I think that you bring up a valid point. Most umpires are trained the same way with the same positioning and they don't really ever question what they are told. This is good to the extent that it creates consistency in mechanics. It's bad in the sense that it doesn't allow for what I call a "thinking umpire." Or, even if it does, it all but wipes out any deviation from the standard mechanic for fear that they may get a demerit.

The level of play in softball has increased dramatically over the last 15 years. The number of close plays on steals and the number of pickoff attempts don't even compare to what they used to be.

Though not endorsed anywhere else other than my state association (as far as I have seen), there is an alternative starting position. It position focuses on percentages rather than the remote chance off a pickoff at 3rd base. The position puts the umpire on the 1st base side of 2nd base with a runner on 3rd base or runners on 1st & 3rd base. There are a few other times. The idea is the same that you brought up - most plays go to 1st base. This mechanic is NOT recommended in all cases. Rather, we let the umpire read the type of game and the game situation. In some sections in the state, stealing is not allowed. That means that pickoff attempts rarely if ever happen. So there isn't much need to put the umpire near 3rd base. Common sense would say that if stealing isn't even allowed, the odds of picking a runner off are as good as winning the lotto. Obviously, in higher level play, it would be better for the umpire to be in better position for pickoff attempts. But umpires are granted the right to use discretion and figure out what is best for the particular situation.

As yourself this, how many bases loaded, full count plays go to 3rd base? Now think how many go to 1st base...

***WARNING - not a standard mechanic. Check with your UIC before deviating.***

Which sanctioning body is endorsing this?

What levels of fastpitch do not allow stealing?

 

[Country Boy]

Okay then, there's your problem right there. In the two-umpire system, the base umpire should have been behind the shortstop, not behind third base- ever. Not only would this increase his distance from the play, but it would put several players between him and first base, as well as give him a worse angle to see the play.

It sounds like you had a very inexperienced base umpire. That might mean you'll get goofy calls no matter where he's standing.

My bad. He was not directly behind 3B. But he was between the SS and 3B and back near the grass. That is pretty normal for what I see around here, but we have a SS that starts very deep. 10 feet either way doesn't change much though. He is 90-100 feet from the action at 1B.

But you make my point. There are several players between that position and 1B. And a lot of distance. In the play I described, there were 2 umpires in good position for a play that didn't happen. And neither were in a good position for the play that did. But it doesn't matter. We're not going to fix anything here.

Thanks for your help!

 

[MTR]

Thank you. That is much as I supposed. In my opinion, the positioning is for the play that might happen every 10- 20 games instead of the play that happens every inning. Yes, the play at first should be a relatively easy force play. But there are middle infielders and base runners running around that can complicate the issue.

The umpire is in what is known as the "C" only when there is a runner on 2B and/or 3B. Bretman is correct, this should be more off the SS's shoulder toward the most advanced occupied base when possible. If the SS sets up that makes this difficult, you read the defense and adapt. The reason has nothing to do with the odds of a play happening someplace, but the priority of the runner. A missed call at 3B can be more detrimental than a missed call at 1B. Also, the play at 3B is more likely to be a tag play which means the umpire must be in a position to move and adjust the angle depending on how the play unfolds. Probably 90%+ of the plays at 1B
are going to be on the BR which is much easier to make from 60-65 feet than a tag at 3B from the same, if not greater, distance.

In our game last night, I had to laugh. They had a runner on 3B with 1 out. The BU was located behind 3B. Ground ball to the P and she went for the out at 1B. So there was an Umpire standing at both 3B and HP for a potential play, but the ball went to 1B. BU had to work to get a view due to the P. The right call was made but it could have been much easier if both Umpires weren't positioned to watch the runner at 3B.

Also as Bretman noted, the BU isn't supposed to be at 3B at anytime in a 2-umpire system. This should have been a relatively easy call from the proper position which "should" have been approx. 55-60 feet away. BTW, the PU does NOT have anything close to a good view for any play at 3B that did not occur on a batted ball. So, your issue isn't with the mechanic, it is with the umpire who doesn't know the proper mechanic.

 

[Umpire]

NYS. Some junior high schools don't.