Boys in a Girls League

[MTR]

SoftSocDad & MTR, you are reading way too much into this.

Who is whining? Agenda? Title IX? You are the ones that appear to have political agendas.

Wow, speaking of reading way too much into something. Is that you, Mr. Pot?

My reasons for having a girl play with the girls is because 1) she would be EXCLUDED by the local baseball league after she turns 9 and 2) the parents have been acting out of convenience not because they are enlightened about gender issues. I do not have a need to have all women in the kitchen. After raising daughters and no sons, I am well aware of how girl's programs generally get the short end of things when it comes to sports.

Traditionally, there have been boy's sports and girl's sports. This country is a long way from gender-blindness, especially in the area of youth and school based sports. You would have to be an idiot to deny that. My question is not one of keeping a woman from getting Saturday morning tee times at your local county club, it is having a very unusual (for my area) situation come up in a rec league. There may be some leagues around the country that are co-ed through 18&U in diamond sports - great, I want to hear how it works.

Most people's initial reaction to this situation is that in a non-coed diamond sport league, most boys would not be caught dead playing because of alleged threats to their manhood/teasing in school. When it is a girl playing with boys it is usually deemed a novelty or "playing up".

So back to my question about a boy in a girl's softball league:

For all the gender does not matter folks: There was a thread on this site about the possibility of fielding an all-girl baseball team in a boy's league. What about an all-boy softball team in a girl's league? Where do you draw the line? In adult co-ed there are gender requirements in all aspects of the game; overall ratio, batting order, fielding positions and defense. How does this work for youth, especially if you could not achieve a 50-50 ratio?

If there has been a girl's league that denied a willing male participant I would want to know about that as well. My feeling is that most parents in this girl's league will not like having boys mixed in. This country is a representative democracy, but there are laws that prevent the majority from imposing its will on a minority. So if this has already been argued about in other areas I would like to know about how it came out.

Soccer seems to not have as many issues with this but there is no difference in the game, ball, or field dimensions for same age boys and girls. Additionally, soccer does not have to deal with the 'baseball is a boy's game and softball is a girl's game' notion. Maybe I should have drunk the Kool-Aid and gotten my daughters involved in soccer to avoid having to worry about gender-based youth sports issues.

A note to SoftSocDad, MTR and others: If all you want to do is comment with you perceptions of what you think is my "agenda", stay with SoftSocDad's plan and stay out of this thread. If you have something beyond trying make this thread simply about gender issues, play on.

I didn't mention any agenda, you did. However, I'll try to make this simple for you. Anyone with the slightest ability to comprehend low-level American English would understand that my only issue was why there was even a discussion on the subject.

But now that you raised the issue, it is not a coincidence that Congress passed Title IX and girls being allowed to play LL ball occured the same summer. A couple years later LL Softball appeared. Any idea why? IMO, to keep the girls off the baseball field. Seems like that sentiment is still live and well.

 

[mikeh25]

MTR:

It must be hard to be you.

You were the one with the limited understanding of my simple questions about having boys play in what has been a girl's league. You instead started in with Title IX, which as someone pointed out, deals with educational facilities that receive federal funds.

I guess when I recommend this site to people as a good place for information about fastpitch softball that I should warn them that this site has problems with overbearing know-it-alls and that they should only post if they want to deal with arrogant people like you.

With your helpful replies, I suspect that no one else will dare to comment so they do not disturb your delicate sensibilities and earn your wrath.

If you want to send me more of your wisdom feel free to PM it to me, otherwise please stay out of my thread.

Thanks for thread crapping!

 

[JAD]

My only concern would be the possible 'pandora's box' that could be opened up where someone puts together an all boys team to play fastpitch. I would imagine 99.9% of boys would play baseball or not play at all, but there is always that 0.1%. My DD has played against a boy on a team at 12U. He was a decent catcher with a good arm, but did not have a big bat.

 

[Greenmonsters]

MTR:

It must be hard to be you.

You were the one with the limited understanding of my simple questions about having boys play in what has been a girl's league. You instead started in with Title IX, which as someone pointed out, deals with educational facilities that receive federal funds.

I guess when I recommend this site to people as a good place for information about fastpitch softball that I should warn them that this site has problems with overbearing know-it-alls and that they should only post if they want to deal with arrogant people like you.

With your helpful replies, I suspect that no one else will dare to comment so they do not disturb your delicate sensibilities and earn your wrath.

If you want to send me more of your wisdom feel free to PM it to me, otherwise please stay out of my thread.

Thanks for thread crapping!

You asked for input and received it. I'm sorry that you may not like or agree with some of the responses, but that's the chance you take with public forums on the internetz. Generally, DFP is one of the most civil and well intentioned sites out there, regardless of topic or content. As far as attitude, from where I sit, you introduced it, yet seem indignant and offended when it was returned in part. As far as agenda, I haven't seen anyone but perhaps yourself who hasn't been clear about their motivation for posting. If you want to discuss, share, or learn about anything SB-related, you won't find a better forum than DFP. But if you're looking for a legal opinion or unconditional empathy, hire a lawyer or a psychotherapist. And, lastly, it's only "your thread" if its your website and your forum and your forum rules. My advice to you is to either a) take your ball and go home or b) apologize for making a rude newb first impression and learn to become more tolerant when having e-discussions.

 

[99&beyond]

I am the one that plans on fielding an all-girl baseball team. My youngest DD is 2. Here the t-ball fields are nicer at the baseball park than the softball one. I think the baseball umps we have are better with the kids than the ones on the softball side. That and I think little hands will fare better with a smaller ball. We will move to the softball fields at machine pitch. T-ball, the game is the same.

Would I be opposed to a boy playing on a girl's team? No, but I would probably wonder why they would want to.

 

[MTR]

MTR:

It must be hard to be you.

You were the one with the limited understanding of my simple questions about having boys play in what has been a girl's league. You instead started in with Title IX, which as someone pointed out, deals with educational facilities that receive federal funds.

Actually, that is incorrect. Title IX applies to any and every organization which benefits from public funding in any form whatsoever. BTW, I umpired baseball from LL to college level for 22 years, softball, FP & SP, youth & adult, local to international for the last 23 years. I've also played both games at multiple levels. I think I have a grasp on the games and who can play what, but that still isn't the point.

I guess when I recommend this site to people as a good place for information about fastpitch softball that I should warn them that this site has problems with overbearing know-it-alls and that they should only post if they want to deal with arrogant people like you.

With your helpful replies, I suspect that no one else will dare to comment so they do not disturb your delicate sensibilities and earn your wrath.

If you want to send me more of your wisdom feel free to PM it to me, otherwise please stay out of my thread.

Thanks for thread crapping!

If you are looking to pontificate on a public forum, you better expect a response. If you don't like the response, welcome to the real world.

BTW, from your responses I doubt you would recognize wisdom if you tripped over it.

Ta Ta

 

[SoftSocDad]

Locally the PONY league baseball league allows girls on their teams in their pre-T, T and Coach Pitch (generally less than 9 years old). I always try to talk parents out of this - let the girl learn and play the game she will have to play as she gets older, but some parents like the convenience.

So what if the parents like convenience? The kids are 7 and 8 years old. How can it possibly be a bad thing for these parents to get their kids off the couches and into organized sports? If a girl wants to play something, regardless of what it is, let her.

This spring we have a girls 8&U Coach Pitch team that is rostering a boy.

Our local softball league has a set of by-laws that states that we are a "girls" league. We are not sanctioned, but base our rules on USSSA. I cannot find anything allowing (or disallowing) co-ed in youth in USSSA. The Divisions are labeled as Boys or Girls though.

Ok. So? I'm not in your community, but I'm pretty sure that your organization is there for the purpose of serving the community and from the sounds of it, this boy and his family are in your community.

Anyone have any experience with a local league allowing boys?

If so what are the limitations (if any) placed either on the boy or the number of boys? (age, positions, etc.)

We're a girls' league, but boys are not prohibited from participating. The local Little League is a boys' league, but girls are not prohibited from participating.

Would it be legal to disallow a boy on a girls team, Equal Rights and all that?

'All that' what?

If you have a legal question, then you should speak to a local attorney.

I know that he is only 8, but I would not put it past some of the winning-is-the-only-thing coaches around here to try something like this on purpose.

Is it your assertion that the fastpitch softball team is using the boy in order to gain a competitive advantage over the other fastpitch softball teams? In 8u?

Around here, defensively there are some rec 8&U boys that handle that baseball better than most rec 12&U girls handle a softball - size of the player, while possibly intimidating is not the problem.

Have you ever looked at the size of a youth baseball relative to the size of a player's hand? Now take a look at the size of a regulation softball relative to the size of a 12u girl's hand. Then apply a little logic. No, on second thought...don't.

Been invovled with this rec league for over ten years, never had the issue of a boy playing come up - had some people whine about girls that looked like a boy though!

*shaking my head*

SoftSocDad & MTR, you are reading way too much into this.

Who is whining? Agenda? Title IX? You are the ones that appear to have political agendas. My reasons for having a girl play with the girls is because 1) she would be EXCLUDED by the local baseball league after she turns 9 and 2) the parents have been acting out of convenience not because they are enlightened about gender issues. I do not have a need to have all women in the kitchen. After raising daughters and no sons, I am well aware of how girl's programs generally get the short end of things when it comes to sports.

And they get the short end of things because of the mindsets of people like you who've wormed your way into decision-making positions, convinced that you know what's best for everyone out there when you haven't a clue about the world outside your own.

I do not know where you're located, but I'd find it very hard to believe that a girl would be, as you claim, 'excluded' from participating in baseball beyond the age of 9. But even if she isn't allowed to play beyond 9, what's the HARM in her playing at ages 6, 7, and 8? There is no harm, and yet, you want to find the fault with the parents because they are - in your opinion - doing it 'only for convenience'.

For the record, why those parents choose to sign DDs up for baseball is really none of your business and unless they make it your business by telling you their reasons, then you're just making up something you think will garner favor with your readers wherever else you might be posting such drivel.

In other words, I believe you're lying for the sole purpose of forwarding your agenda to have girls do what YOU think they should be doing.

Traditionally, there have been boy's sports and girl's sports. This country is a long way from gender-blindness, especially in the area of youth and school based sports. You would have to be an idiot to deny that. My question is not one of keeping a woman from getting Saturday morning tee times at your local county club, it is having a very unusual (for my area) situation come up in a rec league. There may be some leagues around the country that are co-ed through 18&U in diamond sports - great, I want to hear how it works.

A kid signs up to play and is placed on a team by whatever method the rec league uses to organize its teams. How hard is that to understand?

Most people's initial reaction to this situation is that in a non-coed diamond sport league, most boys would not be caught dead playing because of alleged threats to their manhood/teasing in school. When it is a girl playing with boys it is usually deemed a novelty or "playing up".

The 'manhood' of an 8-year-old boy being called into question?? Uh, ok.

So back to my question about a boy in a girl's softball league:

For all the gender does not matter folks: There was a thread on this site about the possibility of fielding an all-girl baseball team in a boy's league. What about an all-boy softball team in a girl's league? Where do you draw the line? In adult co-ed there are gender requirements in all aspects of the game; overall ratio, batting order, fielding positions and defense. How does this work for youth, especially if you could not achieve a 50-50 ratio?

Teams in adult rec leagues are almost always hand-chosen. People who don't have a team but would like to play place themselves in the free agent pool and then existing teams can draw from there.

That's entirely different from what happens in youth rec leagues. Every league has its own policies, but they usually will attempt to balance the teams in some manner. In most of the towns out here, players are drafted. In a blind draft, theoretically, a team could end up with all boys, but in a regular draft, it would be extremely unlikely. If there are 3 boys in the draft and they're all catchers, then they're probably going to 3 different fastpitch teams. Once they're on a team, then they're treated just like any other player. If the team picks the name Dirt Divas, then the boy on that team is a Dirt Diva, too.

If there has been a girl's league that denied a willing male participant I would want to know about that as well. My feeling is that most parents in this girl's league will not like having boys mixed in. This country is a representative democracy, but there are laws that prevent the majority from imposing its will on a minority. So if this has already been argued about in other areas I would like to know about how it came out.

Soccer seems to not have as many issues with this but there is no difference in the game, ball, or field dimensions for same age boys and girls. Additionally, soccer does not have to deal with the 'baseball is a boy's game and softball is a girl's game' notion. Maybe I should have drunk the Kool-Aid and gotten my daughters involved in soccer to avoid having to worry about gender-based youth sports issues.

Again, I do not know where you live, but the nature of the discrimination you are prescribing wouldn't fly around here. If parents don't want their girls playing with boys, they can always pull their girls out of the league.

Lots of people prefer fastpitch to baseball and vice-versa, so it is not at all surprising that boys around the country are wanting to play softball.

A note to SoftSocDad, MTR and others: If all you want to do is comment with you perceptions of what you think is my "agenda", stay with SoftSocDad's plan and stay out of this thread. If you have something beyond trying make this thread simply about gender issues, play on.

All I did was look at every point YOU brought up.

MTR:

It must be hard to be you.

You were the one with the limited understanding of my simple questions about having boys play in what has been a girl's league. You instead started in with Title IX, which as someone pointed out, deals with educational facilities that receive federal funds.

I guess when I recommend this site to people as a good place for information about fastpitch softball that I should warn them that this site has problems with overbearing know-it-alls and that they should only post if they want to deal with arrogant people like you.

With your helpful replies, I suspect that no one else will dare to comment so they do not disturb your delicate sensibilities and earn your wrath.

If you want to send me more of your wisdom feel free to PM it to me, otherwise please stay out of my thread.

Thanks for thread crapping!

Do some research, learn a little history.

This is a quality forum, because most of the inhabitants care about fastpitch softball and fairness.

In closing, if the kid signs up, then you let the kid play just like all the other kids are playing. It really isn't that hard at all.