Rick Pauly has been extremely giving! Quite the gentleman, as well.
Bill Hillhouse pitching demonstration
- Thread starter txnick
- Start date
Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch
Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.
- Status
Rick Pauly has been extremely giving! Quite the gentleman, as well.
OILF, I don't know how crowhopping entered into the discussion. I was talking about the focus on mechanics. I am around this stuff and see girls at all levels warming up and they by and large come out of the shoot firing and don't warm up slowly and focusing on the mechanics as they get warm. It is an observation that has me confused.
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,391
- 113
OILF, this is a common mis-understanding that has become a mainstream thought. And it's only 1/2 true. First and foremost, the USA is the ONLY country in the world that has different pitching rules for men and women. This started in the early 1980's in the ASA's attempt to keep more males playing and pitching softball as their registration numbers were down, which meant so was their revenue stream. So, their answer was to relax the pitching rules to keep guys pitching longer and make it "easier" for others to do it. But, to pitch anywhere else in the world, whether on the USA National team or playing for various club teams around the world, I was not allowed to crow hop. So to make a blanket statement like this: "men can do that because they are allowed to crow hop on purpose when they feel like it over worrying about the rule against it" isn't entirely accurate. I can and have pitched with and without the crow hop.
There is a very big misconception by a lot of people who have men's fastpitch in their area (most of which is simply beer league softball anymore) that males and females have these 2 separate and unique forms of pitching. They watch the "seniors" (your word, not mine) pitch in their local league and they hop, skip, jump, etc. and associate that with how "men pitch". And truth be told, most leagues in the USA only has one rule for men's fastpitch pitching: Don't throw overhand! But that doesn't mean they are pitching correctly or with efficient, safe mechanics. I could probably write a VERY long post about how the different rules have changed people's perception of men's fastpitch, the effect it's had on the game (good and bad), etc. but there is so little interest in men's fastpitch by most people that I think i'd be wasting my time. It's just unfortunate that so many people who have opinions on this topic don't really have all the facts. They just watch a 40-something guy at the local park "hop" when he pitches and think that's how men pitch. Yet, if you take the BEST pitchers in the world (male and female) and put them in side by side analysis, you would see they get themselves into virtually identical positions when they throw. So it really disproves the whole "male vs. female" thing in many respects. I do this very comparison in my power point presentation that I do at coaches clinics.
I can tell you this: men's don't care about the crow hopping. Maybe that's because it's become mainstream in today's game in the USA but nobody cares. The philosophy is, the ball still has to cross the plate regardless of how it's thrown. Nobody cares is the pitcher jumps outside the 24" width of the rubber. Nobody cares if the guy does a triple jump. The few that remain just want to play ball. Perhaps THAT is the biggest difference between the male/female game. If a female pitcher "hopped" the coaches and parents go ballistic. I honestly doubt if the girls even pay any attention. Parents and coaches watch that pitcher with an eagle eye, looking for any infraction while giving their 9 year old a $400 bat to hit a polycore ball so she can hit a 250 ft pop fly. A bat and ball from 25 years ago would be a routine fly ball but today... even "mis-hit" balls are homeruns. I'll get off my rant now.
Bill
- Feb 22, 2013
- 206
- 18
The following is my $ .02 on the crow hop and it's introduction into men's ASA softball.
I don't think that the rule makers for ASA woke up one day and said, male fastpitch numbers are down, there is too much offense in men's fastpitch softball, the pitcher's are getting older so we need to allow a crow hop so that the older pitchers can stay in the game for a few more years. If some of these were there concerns, why not just move the men's fastpitch mound up to 43'?
This is what I observed during the early 1980's when my dad, who was in his mid 40's, was pitching for an elite team in the Pacific Northwest.
During the aforementioned time period, there was an influx of international pitchers being recruited and compensated to play men's ASA fastpitch on the West Coast. The most notable pitchers that I recall were pitchers coming from New Zealand. These pitchers were, for the most part, young and in their twenties and thirties and were flame throwers. There was something different about the New Zealander's pitching style and it became quite evident when I was watching a tournament in the Pacific Northwest, where my dad was pitching.
Word spread quickly that there was a phenom pitcher from New Zealand that was mowing down batter after batter. People started flocking to the field where he was pitching. Several of the male pitchers who were waiting for their next game started to sit behind home plate and started talking. These pitchers then started yelling, "Illegal pitch", everytime the pitcher would pitch the ball. It got so bad that the UIC was called to the field. The UIC stated that there was nothing illegal with the pitch and during the next couple of games the fun began.
The other pitchers who were observing the New Zealand pitcher and were yelling illegal pitch after each pitch all decided that they were going to throw illegal if the UIC and umpires weren't going to enforce the rules. I watched my dad take the field and crow hop every pitch for the remainder of the tournament. He was called for an illegal pitch on every pitch for the first six or so pitches. His crow hop was very deliberate and herky/jerky and everyone in the softball complex knew that he was replanting somewhere around 43' and releasing the ball somewhere around 40'. The umpires, UIC and tournament director threatened to throw him out of the ball park for making a mockery out of the game, but the same conversations started happening on every field. Most every pitcher started throwing illegal in some fashion or another in protest of the New Zealand pitcher's pitching style.
This scenario played out again at other tournaments throughout that year where pitchers from New Zealand pitched. I remember watching tournaments in Canada and California where the crow hopping, that was more likely than not illegal at the time, was being done so much that the umpires just quit calling it. The discussions were so heated that it looked like one of those YouTube Videos where men's fastpitch players get ejected or games get forfeited for arguing with the umpires.
I was a teenager when I witnessed these events. When I look back at it, I am amazed that men could switch from a leaping style pitcher to a crow hopper in a matter of minutes. Men knew that the closer that they could release a ball to a batter, the more intimidating that they would be and the less time that the batter would have to react to a pitch. Throw in a couple of wild pitches, behind the batter or off the back stop, and tell the hitters that he can't control the ball when crow hopping and he probably doubles his strike out ratio.
The first time I ever remember observing my dad crow hop and adamantly defend the pitch, was when he was protesting the illegal pitching habits of other pitchers that he was competing against and protesting the fact that the umpires were not applying the legal and illegal pitches according to the rule book as he saw them.
This is only what I observed. Maybe somebody else who was involved with the men's fastpitch pitching rule change could shed some light on this subject.
I don't think that the rule makers for ASA woke up one day and said, male fastpitch numbers are down, there is too much offense in men's fastpitch softball, the pitcher's are getting older so we need to allow a crow hop so that the older pitchers can stay in the game for a few more years. If some of these were there concerns, why not just move the men's fastpitch mound up to 43'?
This is what I observed during the early 1980's when my dad, who was in his mid 40's, was pitching for an elite team in the Pacific Northwest.
During the aforementioned time period, there was an influx of international pitchers being recruited and compensated to play men's ASA fastpitch on the West Coast. The most notable pitchers that I recall were pitchers coming from New Zealand. These pitchers were, for the most part, young and in their twenties and thirties and were flame throwers. There was something different about the New Zealander's pitching style and it became quite evident when I was watching a tournament in the Pacific Northwest, where my dad was pitching.
Word spread quickly that there was a phenom pitcher from New Zealand that was mowing down batter after batter. People started flocking to the field where he was pitching. Several of the male pitchers who were waiting for their next game started to sit behind home plate and started talking. These pitchers then started yelling, "Illegal pitch", everytime the pitcher would pitch the ball. It got so bad that the UIC was called to the field. The UIC stated that there was nothing illegal with the pitch and during the next couple of games the fun began.
The other pitchers who were observing the New Zealand pitcher and were yelling illegal pitch after each pitch all decided that they were going to throw illegal if the UIC and umpires weren't going to enforce the rules. I watched my dad take the field and crow hop every pitch for the remainder of the tournament. He was called for an illegal pitch on every pitch for the first six or so pitches. His crow hop was very deliberate and herky/jerky and everyone in the softball complex knew that he was replanting somewhere around 43' and releasing the ball somewhere around 40'. The umpires, UIC and tournament director threatened to throw him out of the ball park for making a mockery out of the game, but the same conversations started happening on every field. Most every pitcher started throwing illegal in some fashion or another in protest of the New Zealand pitcher's pitching style.
This scenario played out again at other tournaments throughout that year where pitchers from New Zealand pitched. I remember watching tournaments in Canada and California where the crow hopping, that was more likely than not illegal at the time, was being done so much that the umpires just quit calling it. The discussions were so heated that it looked like one of those YouTube Videos where men's fastpitch players get ejected or games get forfeited for arguing with the umpires.
I was a teenager when I witnessed these events. When I look back at it, I am amazed that men could switch from a leaping style pitcher to a crow hopper in a matter of minutes. Men knew that the closer that they could release a ball to a batter, the more intimidating that they would be and the less time that the batter would have to react to a pitch. Throw in a couple of wild pitches, behind the batter or off the back stop, and tell the hitters that he can't control the ball when crow hopping and he probably doubles his strike out ratio.
The first time I ever remember observing my dad crow hop and adamantly defend the pitch, was when he was protesting the illegal pitching habits of other pitchers that he was competing against and protesting the fact that the umpires were not applying the legal and illegal pitches according to the rule book as he saw them.
This is only what I observed. Maybe somebody else who was involved with the men's fastpitch pitching rule change could shed some light on this subject.
- Aug 21, 2008
- 2,391
- 113
sleepwalker, ok... first thing. The first NZ pitchers came to USA back in the 1970's. There is some debate about who was the first but whenever and whoever it was started a trend, no doubt. Grame Arnold is a name that comes to mind who was one of the first and came over to the Pacific NW.
However, the assertion that the NZ pitchers (referred to as Kiwis) were better than what was here is preposterous. Yes, some were better than others. But, USA was the world champs for every year until 1980. The 1976 ISF was in NZ and the final was rained out naming NZ and USA co-champs (Canada may have been there too, it could've been a "Tri-champ") but the rain prohibited the finals. That was the year Ty Stofflet of Pennsylvania threw the 20 inning PERFECT game vs. NZ. He lost the perfect game when he hit a batter on the elbow (whom, to this very day he says leaned into the pitch). He went on to hit the game winning RBI to win the game 1-0. Shortly after this 20 inning marathon, the International tie breaker was introduced. LOL.
Having been one of not very many American pitchers to play seasons in the NZ, I can tell you this: they did NOT start the crow hopping trend. I played 10 seasons in NZ and am pretty well versed in the history of softball there (and here) and can state this with pretty good authority.
I honestly don't know where crow hopping started. I am pretty confident it happened around the time of the aluminum bats introduction and guys felt the need to do something to regain their advantage. But, as the years went on and the ASA's numbers were declining, they had to do something. As guys started hopping and getting called illegal, they simply quit. This made the numbers decline even faster. So, then the rules were divided. And men's softball has never looked back and it's been good and bad. Good: because more guys continued to play and it made it "easier" for others to begin. Bad: The USA's standing in international competition is horrible as our pitchers learn to pitch by "cheating" then are unable to throw with the ISF's "legal rules". USA men's national team relies on foreign pitchers who marry Americans and become citizens for the ace of their staff. The last time I was on Team USA (year 2000) 2 of our 4 pitchers were born in NZ.
I guess we'll never really know some of the reasons some things happen.
Bill
However, the assertion that the NZ pitchers (referred to as Kiwis) were better than what was here is preposterous. Yes, some were better than others. But, USA was the world champs for every year until 1980. The 1976 ISF was in NZ and the final was rained out naming NZ and USA co-champs (Canada may have been there too, it could've been a "Tri-champ") but the rain prohibited the finals. That was the year Ty Stofflet of Pennsylvania threw the 20 inning PERFECT game vs. NZ. He lost the perfect game when he hit a batter on the elbow (whom, to this very day he says leaned into the pitch). He went on to hit the game winning RBI to win the game 1-0. Shortly after this 20 inning marathon, the International tie breaker was introduced. LOL.
Having been one of not very many American pitchers to play seasons in the NZ, I can tell you this: they did NOT start the crow hopping trend. I played 10 seasons in NZ and am pretty well versed in the history of softball there (and here) and can state this with pretty good authority.
I honestly don't know where crow hopping started. I am pretty confident it happened around the time of the aluminum bats introduction and guys felt the need to do something to regain their advantage. But, as the years went on and the ASA's numbers were declining, they had to do something. As guys started hopping and getting called illegal, they simply quit. This made the numbers decline even faster. So, then the rules were divided. And men's softball has never looked back and it's been good and bad. Good: because more guys continued to play and it made it "easier" for others to begin. Bad: The USA's standing in international competition is horrible as our pitchers learn to pitch by "cheating" then are unable to throw with the ISF's "legal rules". USA men's national team relies on foreign pitchers who marry Americans and become citizens for the ace of their staff. The last time I was on Team USA (year 2000) 2 of our 4 pitchers were born in NZ.
I guess we'll never really know some of the reasons some things happen.
Bill
I agree wholeheartedly with your post and sentiment. I rarely post because BM and a few others come across as pompous know it alls. I asked for pitching advice and got parenting advice. If I'd wanted parenting advice, I'd go to a parenting advice board. I'm glad Bill Hillhouse wrote what he did. Who wants to come to a discussion board and be bullied? What a waste of time.
John Seita
- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,796
- 63
Hmmmmm.........I don't ever remember responding to anything you've posted here in a negative way.........And I certainly wasn't involved in lecturing you about parenting.........In fact, I wasn't even involved in the thread where you made that statement.......
Aim being lectured......
I've had my share of issues with a few posters.......Most of them were/are either snake-oil salesman. or just plain out of line in their posts..........I take a stance in my responses to them if I feel a response is necessary.........
So the truth is........I only bully bullies...........That's never happened with you.........
As far as Hillhouse is concerned.......I offered my apology for something that was said completely "tongue-in-cheek"........
My bad for thinking Bill could actually laugh at himself.......My mistake........
And............
These are just qualities I assign to good people.........
Last edited:
Boardmember,
I believe some people are overly sensitive, even looking to be offended. I, myself, prefer a blunt approach or no-nonsense approach when discussing this stuff. I also prefer people that call a spade a spade rather than sugar-coating things. Like emails, these posts will generally come across harsher than the poster intended.
I believe some people are overly sensitive, even looking to be offended. I, myself, prefer a blunt approach or no-nonsense approach when discussing this stuff. I also prefer people that call a spade a spade rather than sugar-coating things. Like emails, these posts will generally come across harsher than the poster intended.
- Status
Similar threads
