So the palm up curve cue after she understands and can throw a rise with the lack of initial pronation, is "throw it like a rise except the finish will be at the belly button?"
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So the palm up curve cue after she understands and can throw a rise with the lack of initial pronation, is "throw it like a rise except the finish will be at the belly button?"
Interesting, and I understand what you are saying. I've found the manipulation of the fingers around the ball, whether taught into the belly button, or hip to hip as I say, helps with understanding of how fingers slice under the ball on the rise. Yes, there is some degree of muscle memory that interferes when transitioning from curve to rise, but I've not found this difficult to overcome, no more than any other pitches.
I've gone with the curve first for a couple of reasons. First, I think it is easier to teach. I teach the curve and rise with the same grip and essentially the same mechanics outside of how the fingers slice around or under the ball. Second and probably the main reason is a 11 or 12 year old pitcher who is in the mid 40s can throw a curve and see it move which keeps them excited.
Then again, I'm known to do things bass ackwards and beat my head against a wall
In light of the greater experience you and Bill have, I'll rethink what I'm doing.
Don't know anything about the before or after of teaching curve & Rise... I do know, that before this Sat. DD didn't have a real RiseBall... after sat. now she does... Thx Again CoachJames !!!
Interesting, and I understand what you are saying. I've found the manipulation of the fingers around the ball, whether taught into the belly button, or hip to hip as I say, helps with understanding of how fingers slice under the ball on the rise. Yes, there is some degree of muscle memory that interferes when transitioning from curve to rise, but I've not found this difficult to overcome, no more than any other pitches.
I've gone with the curve first for a couple of reasons. First, I think it is easier to teach. I teach the curve and rise with the same grip and essentially the same mechanics outside of how the fingers slice around or under the ball. Second and probably the main reason is a 11 or 12 year old pitcher who is in the mid 40s can throw a curve and see it move which keeps them excited.
Then again, I'm known to do things bass ackwards and beat my head against a wall
Welcome to the bass ackwards Club... I'm the President though
At that age group, Take best pitch and throw 2Seam...then use finger pressure, or lack of pressure. Keeping them excited is the key !!!
Place the pinky side of middle fingertip against a seam and pull around the ball outside->in. Cup a roll of masking tape and fling it a few times to get the idea, then do the same with a ball.
Tips:
-To keep it flatter (less crise spin) cup the hand more;
-To keep the axis straight up and down (less spiral) turn the thumb down/back more and lead more with the diamond on the ring finger.
The Corkscrew Curve
Look at the hand/ball orientation in the last shot. Now think about how the hand would be oriented in a corkscrew curve at release. They are the same: with the tip of the middle finger being the last to touch the ball. I think the palm up curve provides more spin/break.
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Thanks. She has a way to go on her other pitches but I expect to nail them down and be able to start on a curve before spring, thanks for the info.
The curve is tough. I take that back... A really good curve is tough. Like getting a true 6/12 rise; the body is limited in it's ability to get true curve spin at full speed. With work it can get close. Most CB's look like any other spiral ball and are mostly just another angled pitch with a maybe a couple inches of break. If polished, it can be a good tool for someone's box. I really like the rise, drop, change and maybe an off-speed variant. The curve is fun to throw. I like to teach it along with the Eephus pitch to help make practice fun. If it clicks with your kid and she can make it work for her--go for it.
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This past summer, my daughter attended a college camp. When they got to the curve ball, they asked to raise your hand if you threw a curve or a drop curve. Only two girls raised their hand for the drop curve, my daughter being one of them. It was the only pitch that they didn't show a variation of throwing. The great thing, my daughter learned how to throw a curve. Fast forward to now. She still prefers the drop curve because she got more strikes throwing it this way versus the normal curve. It works well for her because it is an off speed pitch that she can control and locate anywhere she wants. I have seen both LHB and RHB move out of the way thinking it will hit them but be a strike.
Have fun with it, play around and see if you can add a drop or a rise to it.
Have fun with it, play around and see if you can add a drop or a rise to it.
- Aug 21, 2008
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I can assure you I can put flat side spin on a ball for it to curve. But I chose not to in games because I didn't want the pitch staying on the same plain as where I threw it for the hitter to read, measure and attack. Hitting balls on the same plain is what the majority of girls are taught from day 1 of working on their swing first it's T work, then soft toss, etc. Nothing that simulates the ball moving so they can hit the ball and learn to adjust the swing accordingly.
DNeeld things most curves will have some degree of backspin... I guess that ultimately depends on if you throw it with the palm under or palm on top of the ball. Personally I don't think palm on top puts as much rotation for the ball to curve as palm under but, I'm sure there will be plenty of arguments on that one. There is a lot of curveball (and screwball) confusion by the step off the rubber. Way TOO many people see a RHP step way right and throw way left and call it a curve (regardless of the spin) and step way left and throw way right and call it a screw (regardless of the spin). And once again, because girls are not taught adjustments to moving pitches early enough it seems like the strikeout is caused by movement rather than the girls simply not knowing how to hit it.
As some of you know I worked with Oregon's Jenna Lilley since she was 10 years old. I threw BP to her for 1/2 hour every week for 8 years. I taught her how to read me, watch my grip, look for distinctions in my motion to telegraph the pitch etc etc. I am telling you, without a word of a lie, by the time she was a junior in HS I could not fool her on pitches. Now in full disclosure, I didn't throw 100% at her but I threw much harder than ANYONE she'd see in college. She was not fooled by pitches, fouling off what she couldn't hit square. We started together when I would throw to her sister who was at Northwestern at the time. Jenna's dad, how is a hitting coach by the way, had 3 girls play D1 softball and a brother D1 baseball and drafted by Cardinals. But he had the foresight to get Jenna hitting live pitching ASAP. I'd say it paid off. But make no mistake Jenna was playing D1 with or without me. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! However I'd like to think I helped.
That story was not to brag. It was to illustrate the difference between learning to hit pitches and learning to swing. It's not the same thing. And pitches that look successful can be deceptive.
Bill
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