He's making her slap her thigh.

[FiveFrameSwing]

So in your opinion the only way to create adduction is with the glove slapping the thigh????????????

Another instructor against slapping the glove on the thigh is Cheri Kempf owner of Club K.

About Cheri Kempf

clubk.com - Cheri Kempf – Owner/Instructor

Peppers ... I addressed this in an earlier post .... copied below.

For someone that isn't fully adducting it can be a goal that more fully completes the adduction process. To be clear ... the glove slap is not necessary with full adduction, but it certainly can be a result and it isn't an issue imo.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

So in your opinion the only way to create adduction is with the glove slapping the thigh????????????

Another instructor against slapping the glove on the thigh is Cheri Kempf owner of Club K.

About Cheri Kempf

clubk.com - Cheri Kempf – Owner/Instructor

As an FYI, the following clip is from Cheri's pitching video .... screw ball example. Cheri used this as an example despite the blatant glove slap.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

 

[Softball scholar]

Thank you for providing three explanations supporting the prevention of a glove slap.

1. Pain and self injury. :

I personally don't see Cat wincing in pain as the glove contacts her front thigh.

There are many pitchers that have done this .... why is it they can have long careers with this trait if it is so dangerous?

You mentioned the potential to ruin a pitcher's endurance ..... that didn't seem to be the case with Cat.


2. Driving the glove into the hips can make the pitcher close too early.:

Or ..... The act of allowing the glove to contact the thigh enhances synchronization.


3. This can be a timing mechanism for the hitter. :

See earlier posts in this thread. If anything, if a hitter uses the audible sound as a timing mechanism then they will be worse off, not better off.


As for the overhand throw analogy, understand that the deceleration mechanics are not identical, as the body orientation is not identical. For example, in an overhand throw the upper torso is more square to the target at release, and for a windmill pitch the upper body is more open at release.

Im not the expert. But I was just referencing what I read from Bill Hillhouse on these 3 points and maybe not as articulately as him. Also, Ive heard Hillhouse say on multiple times the windmill pitch is like the overhand pitch but underhand. I'll try to find the source where I read that from Hillhouse. He did also say the only benefit he considered from the slap was that it was a good timing mechanism for release of the ball.

 

[Softball scholar]

I pulled this paragraph from one of Bill Hillhouse pitching articles on his site. Its the PCM Redux article from 12-07.



"So, what prompted this tirade against the PCM? Recently at a clinic I was doing, I was watching a victim of the PCM throw and began to ask questions to both the pitcher and her mother who was catching. "Why are you doing this? What is the purpose of doing that?" and questions like that. I was hoping they would have an answer for why the pitcher was doing something in particular and what their coach was trying to teach. In this case, the girl was slapping her leg hard with her glove as she delivered the ball. I said... why are you doing that? Her mother said the pitching coach said it will stop her from letting her glove fly out of line with her body and pulling her off her 'power line'. Fair enough I said but, first thing is first: hitting yourself HURTS! Why hit yourself? Second, there are other (less painful) ways of correcting this. And third, by slapping yourself, you're giving the batter another timing mechanism as to when to start their swing. So, why help the batter? While this made sense to mom, they were fearful of doing it differently because the pitching coach would get mad. Apparently the PCM would've put a hit out on this girl and she'd be in cement shoes. All I could think was: it's the PCM at it's finest! If hitting herself is the right way to go, why doesn't Cat Osterman, Michele Smith, Monica Abbott, etc. hit themselves? That question went unanswered"

 

[JJsqueeze]

I pulled this paragraph from one of Bill Hillhouse pitching articles on his site. Its the PCM Redux article from 12-07.



"So, what prompted this tirade against the PCM? Recently at a clinic I was doing, I was watching a victim of the PCM throw and began to ask questions to both the pitcher and her mother who was catching. "Why are you doing this? What is the purpose of doing that?" and questions like that. I was hoping they would have an answer for why the pitcher was doing something in particular and what their coach was trying to teach. In this case, the girl was slapping her leg hard with her glove as she delivered the ball. I said... why are you doing that? Her mother said the pitching coach said it will stop her from letting her glove fly out of line with her body and pulling her off her 'power line'. Fair enough I said but, first thing is first: hitting yourself HURTS! Why hit yourself? Second, there are other (less painful) ways of correcting this. And third, by slapping yourself, you're giving the batter another timing mechanism as to when to start their swing. So, why help the batter? While this made sense to mom, they were fearful of doing it differently because the pitching coach would get mad. Apparently the PCM would've put a hit out on this girl and she'd be in cement shoes. All I could think was: it's the PCM at it's finest! If hitting herself is the right way to go, why doesn't Cat Osterman, Michele Smith, Monica Abbott, etc. hit themselves? That question went unanswered"

I think when you want to introduce expert opinions in DFP court it is hearsay unless they chime in directly on the thread. Nano's DD is a Hillhouse student so he probably has more direct info on how militant Bill is on this. From what I could gather it wasn't like Bill was forcing his DD to focus on getting rid of the slap. My take on the Hillhouse "overhand is the same as underhand" statements is solely related to the feeling of a loose arm whip, good loading and overlap etc, not that he is advocating that the body square up to the target at release and the body lean forward into the throw like you see in overhand.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

SoftballScholar .... Cat Osterman does hit herself.

What you wrote here .... "by slapping yourself, you're giving the batter another timing mechanism as to when to start their swing. So, why help the batter?" .... is incorrect. If a batter times the sound from the glove slap then they will be at a disadvantage.

 

[Softball scholar]

I think when you want to introduce expert opinions in DFP court it is hearsay unless they chime in directly on the thread. Nano's DD is a Hillhouse student so he probably has more direct info on how militant Bill is on this. From what I could gather it wasn't like Bill was forcing his DD to focus on getting rid of the slap. My take on the Hillhouse "overhand is the same as underhand" statements is solely related to the feeling of a loose arm whip, good loading and overlap etc, not that he is advocating that the body square up to the target at release and the body lean forward into the throw like you see in overhand.

I wish Hillhouse or even Nano would chime in. But I disagree with the heresay comment. Its not hearsay when you specifcally reference and cite his published materials on DFP. That's kind of the opposite of hearsay, that's more like reporting. Resarch paper 101. I just brought a real and researchable reference to argue my point. Also, I've read more than once where Hillhouse is totally against the slap.

Also, in my opinion the abduction of throwing overhand and underhand are very similar motions.

 

[Classof2020]

I think we have all heard at a number of different times that Hillhouse is against the slap, and we can probably find other reputable coaches too who are against the slap. Does that make it a hard and fast rule? Is he the infallible authority on everything to do with pitching? I don't mean any disrespect because I realize he is an experienced pitcher with a great career. But by looking at the information that FFF has been so kind to shown us, by looking at videos and what we can see with our own two eyes and in what we hear from other pitcher's experiences it seems like it is definitely very common with MANY of the greatest pitchers of all time. I think that at best you have to say this is a gray area where you'd hope people could agree to disagree.

 

[FiveFrameSwing]

As good as Hillhouse is, ... and I do believe he is quite good ... , I believe that what you extract from him should be verified.

For example ... if he says that Cat doesn't have her glove hit her lead thigh, then look at video to confirm .... and if you did, you'd see that he wasn't quite correct on that.

If he says that the sound of the glove slap assists a hitter with their timing, then research the timing aspects of the swing .... and when you do you'll find that the sound of the glove slap is too late to serve as an effective timing mechanism.

If he says that the glove slap results in the pitcher closing too early, then verify that .... and when you look at accomplished pitchers that contain such a glove slap you'll see that isn't quite the case.

If he says the glove slap leads to an injury, then search for such data. Ask yourself how someone like Cat can complete a game and yet show no observable signs of pain towards the end of the game. Is it true ... could be ... but look for data to support what you are buying into.

Is it true that the windmill throwing motion is equivalent to the overhand throwing motion turned upside down? Absolutely not!

Bill is a very good instructor. That said, a filter should be applied to what you extract ..... IMO anyway.