Critique / Help Series of Swings

[Steve Huff]

Essentially.

They made him less efficient.

Bat wrap happens as part of the loading process. By limiting the movement of his barrel, they removed much of his loading mechanism. That made him more static and bound up. As a result, he had to swing harder to achieve the same result, which killed his average.

Last year he hit much better from the right side than from the left side, due in large part to the fact that they didn't mess with him from that side. From the right side he loads better and wraps the barrel more as a result.

The telltale is to watch how close the barrel gets to the back of the helmet.

This is what I get for not reading all the posts, just going to the last page and either repeating or contributing little to recent discourse. It was already discussed about pitch location. Thanks for pointing out about the tip of the catcher's glove in the Torres gif, TommyRobertson. You can see where the pitch is going to be by the responsive mechanics of the hitters. My point all along that pitch location changes mechanics. Don't compare apples and oranges. Though these two gifs are close enough I feel. It was already discussed about bat wrap also. Then I popped in with my two cents. What I will say again, I do not consider coil or bat wrap bad. I like Posey's swing and increased wrist load at connection at the hip. I like it in knightsb's DD's swing. I like it in Brooke's swing. I also like it NOT in Jessica Mendoza's swing. What does that mean? You can't teach every kid the same. What makes me crazy is reinventing the wheel. I don't like "turning the barrel". I read about that last year. You mean flattening the barrel to a reasonable angle to initiate the swing. The concept has been there for 60 years or more. Chris probably knows more than me. I imagine he knows what I am talking about. Another part of this, if a batter has a lot of lean, then the the bat head is not vertical. It is the relationship to the shoulders that determines the angle, not a "view".

Stretch and Fire. I like this drill. I have said all along I like this drill and its ability to reproduce a NORMAL approach to hitting an outside pitch deep. The swing path is not unique! If you orient correctly to the ball, not fooled, and point your belly button to right-center field, if your back knee and back shoe laces point at RF also, then your swing duplicates a swing to pull the ball. However, just as the hips turn short, about 50% or so toward RF, your swing also is short toward RF. Your extension is pointed at right-center field also. It is the same finish, but the bat is released earlier in the process. There is little movement before connection at the hip. Swing away! So the swing is not something new.

Seeing something that is not there is an issue. Comparing apples to oranges is an issue. You can not compare the swing path on an outside pitch to an inside pitch, high to low.

MTS, you told me that you couldn't hit to RF as I describe, the ball would go foul. I would ask all of you dads, coaches, assistant coaches, if you face your bat square to, or at the 2nd base fielding position, that is a 22.5 degree slant or angle on the bat. If not other variables such as a tilted bat angle, etc. interfered with the bunted ball, what direction would the bunted ball go? Now, when hitting, the orientation of the core is at the 2nd base fielding position. The neutral wrist position would place the bat just the same as when bunting. The wrist isn't cocked, isn't breaking. So what happens next. The power band, or ideal wrist snap angle as I said before is about 12-15 degrees. The brings the bat head around toward the pitcher more. It could be 10-25 degrees perhaps. That said, now the bat angle is between the 2nd base fielding position (theoretically between 1/2 way between 1st and 2nd) and 2nd base (or pitcher). Where is the ball going to go? It is called basic geometry. And I am called the fool.

When launch is narrowly defined as I see in Posey, and perhaps some others. I approve. I like his swing better than Torres. His swing resembles Brooke and Olivia's swings more. That is why I like theirs. That is why Chris O'Leary likes Posey's better I assume. You can't just make things up to suite your theories. These things bothered me.

 

[Steve Huff]

And just to focus on the barrel turn and the relationship to the back arm

Watch the back arm and barrel - they move at the same time as if their is a steel rod connecting his elbow to the barrel tip - also notice that as the barrel is headed away from contact that the rear leg is sensing it must move forward....

His hands are actually moving away from contact a bit during this before going forward - his hands are pulling the bat around a circle - continuing in the same direction - not pushing towards the pitcher - not loading back and then pushing forward

The barrel continues down an arcish path - much like a windmill pitch....and the rear elbow and barrel are still connected

These .gifs really set me off! If Kemp was standing up, the bat would be making an arc back toward his back foot. He is leaning over. He is moving to hit a low outside pitch. He does, hit it too far out front. Fooled a little? The bat path is essentially what most hitters would do on a similar pitch. A high inside pitch would produce a different swing arc. The bat head creates a quicker transition into the arc on low and outside, than it will on up and in. Notice the core orientation and back knee and foot toward right-center field. It would be more pronounced if he let the ball get in deeper. However, as I mentioned before, they often try to avoid hitting a ground ball, and try to get behind the ball and lift it, requiring they hit it further out front.

If you filmed a properly hit ball, say down the middle or slightly in, but not too far inside, at the letters, and took note of the swings appearance, and did this from the pitcher's mound, then had the same hitter who properly mechanically hit a ball on the outside and up at the letters, but filmed it from the 2nd base position, you would see the same swing. The bat path would appear to be the same. It isn't, because the hip rotation is only 50%, and the bat is released at that point, sooner in the motion or rotation, but hit deeper in the zone. Delayed!

 

[Steve Huff]

Love the bat speed


SL

And that bat speed will pay off in more than just power.

 

[mann]

These .gifs really set me off! If Kemp was standing up, the bat would be making an arc back toward his back foot. He is leaning over. He is moving to hit a low outside pitch. He does, hit it too far out front. Fooled a little? The bat path is essentially what most hitters would do on a similar pitch. A high inside pitch would produce a different swing arc. The bat head creates a quicker transition into the arc on low and outside, than it will on up and in. Notice the core orientation and back knee and foot toward right-center field. It would be more pronounced if he let the ball get in deeper. However, as I mentioned before, they often try to avoid hitting a ground ball, and try to get behind the ball and lift it, requiring they hit it further out front.

If you filmed a properly hit ball, say down the middle or slightly in, but not too far inside, at the letters, and took note of the swings appearance, and did this from the pitcher's mound, then had the same hitter who properly mechanically hit a ball on the outside and up at the letters, but filmed it from the 2nd base position, you would see the same swing. The bat path would appear to be the same. It isn't, because the hip rotation is only 50%, and the bat is released at that point, sooner in the motion or rotation, but hit deeper in the zone. Delayed!

Does the depth of the swing change, on a outside pitch?
to put it another way, is the whole first part of the swing, the lag to barrel drop, the downward arch, does this occur further behind the batter?.
One of the drills i have done and might do more of, involve having the back foot against the wall or net, keeping the swing arch forward. anyone?

 

[mann]

These .gifs really set me off! If Kemp was standing up, the bat would be making an arc back toward his back foot. He is leaning over. He is moving to hit a low outside pitch. He does, hit it too far out front. Fooled a little? The bat path is essentially what most hitters would do on a similar pitch. A high inside pitch would produce a different swing arc. The bat head creates a quicker transition into the arc on low and outside, than it will on up and in. Notice the core orientation and back knee and foot toward right-center field. It would be more pronounced if he let the ball get in deeper. However, as I mentioned before, they often try to avoid hitting a ground ball, and try to get behind the ball and lift it, requiring they hit it further out front.

If you filmed a properly hit ball, say down the middle or slightly in, but not too far inside, at the letters, and took note of the swings appearance, and did this from the pitcher's mound, then had the same hitter who properly mechanically hit a ball on the outside and up at the letters, but filmed it from the 2nd base position, you would see the same swing. The bat path would appear to be the same. It isn't, because the hip rotation is only 50%, and the bat is released at that point, sooner in the motion or rotation, but hit deeper in the zone. Delayed!

Does the depth of the swing change, on a outside pitch?
to put it another way, is the whole first part of the swing, the lag to barrel drop, the downward arch, does this occur further behind the batter?.
One of the drills i have done and might do more of, involve having the back foot against the wall or net, keeping the swing arch forward. anyone?

 

[Steve Huff]

Does the depth of the swing change, on a outside pitch?
to put it another way, is the whole first part of the swing, the lag to barrel drop, the downward arch, does this occur further behind the batter?.
One of the drills i have done and might do more of, involve having the back foot against the wall or net, keeping the swing arch forward. anyone?

That is exactly what I am saying. And the irony of it is, when I am disagreed with, the evidence is in their SnF drill. That drill is fine you mentioned. What you do not want is a reach back with the arms during the swing, creating that wide sweep. So that drill may at least plant a seed in their heads would be not to try and knock the catcher's mask off! I think I have a photo on my other computer that I can post with this tomorrow. She looks like she is trying to kill the catcher.

In Kemps swing, you are sort of getting a "from down under view" because of his lean. If standing up, and hitting a waist high outside pitch, his swing would reach back the same distance, but not beyond the back foot.

 

[RayR]

You method has the barrel entering the hitting zone late - behind the hands....so instead of using a static example - move the tee back in your stance and hit some balls using your method. I have and I know the results...your hands come through before the barrel and are swinging in a circle so for the RH hitter the hands are heading left as they come through....it is a slice...you are missing early bat speed that will allow the barrel to catch up with the hands earlier - getting the barrel into the hitting zone early so you can square up the ball instead of slicing it - or driving it pull foul if you are early....

And if the ball is low - your hitters end up swinging down and popping it up....your method does not produce the Kemp swing....but I am always open to new things - so if you can show me a hitter using your method or you swinging off a tee using your method....remember they have to be swinging keeping the bat at the shoulder up to where the bat is flat to the ground...hands/elbow stacked with pants stripe....hands leading...no rearward launch....late snap of the wrists....shoulders turning

MTS, you told me that you couldn't hit to RF as I describe, the ball would go foul. I would ask all of you dads, coaches, assistant coaches, if you face your bat square to, or at the 2nd base fielding position, that is a 22.5 degree slant or angle on the bat. If not other variables such as a tilted bat angle, etc. interfered with the bunted ball, what direction would the bunted ball go? Now, when hitting, the orientation of the core is at the 2nd base fielding position. The neutral wrist position would place the bat just the same as when bunting. The wrist isn't cocked, isn't breaking. So what happens next. The power band, or ideal wrist snap angle as I said before is about 12-15 degrees. The brings the bat head around toward the pitcher more. It could be 10-25 degrees perhaps. That said, now the bat angle is between the 2nd base fielding position (theoretically between 1/2 way between 1st and 2nd) and 2nd base (or pitcher). Where is the ball going to go? It is called basic geometry. And I am called the fool.

 

[RayR]

Still don't get it....but you keep posting like you do...no one reaching back with the hands and arms.....no one is saying to reach back with your hands and arms....no one is knocking the catchers mask off....

That is exactly what I am saying. And the irony of it is, when I am disagreed with, the evidence is in their SnF drill. That drill is fine you mentioned. What you do not want is a reach back with the arms during the swing, creating that wide sweep. So that drill may at least plant a seed in their heads would be not to try and knock the catcher's mask off! I think I have a photo on my other computer that I can post with this tomorrow. She looks like she is trying to kill the catcher.

In Kemps swing, you are sort of getting a "from down under view" because of his lean. If standing up, and hitting a waist high outside pitch, his swing would reach back the same distance, but not beyond the back foot.

 

[redhotcoach]

When launch is narrowly defined as I see in Posey, and perhaps some others. I approve. I like his swing better than Torres. His swing resembles Brooke and Olivia's swings more. That is why I like theirs. That is why Chris O'Leary likes Posey's better I assume. You can't just make things up to suite your theories. These things bothered me.

HAHA. A great way to wake up in the morning.

 

[crankermo]

Steve,

I happen to agree that the hand path will change a little based off the location of the pitch, IMO it has to. The idea is to to throw the barrel, not the hands at the ball. I've seen several ELITE hitters change their hand path to hit pitches and the common factor in them is they do what they need to in order to square up the ball. That's why you have to have great hands to be to be a great hitter IMO.

I also agree with you that you don't teach every kid the same. For example just look at Brooke's bat angle, it's relatively flat compared to most hitters. We tried using the conventional 45' but she was one of the "weird" ones that it didn't feel natural to her and it robbed her of some power and control, that's just her personal preference. You can't conform your DD to every standard rule, their has to be some personal preferences in everybody's swing.

As for turning the barrel analogy, I personally believe it bigtime. IMO it creates live and active hands and I really think that is one the biggest things being miss taught nowadays, people are so caught up in the rotational aspect of the swing. It may sound stupid but I used this que with Brooke, you use your hands to write with, if you use your arms/shoulders to control your pen your writing is going to be terrible, your bat is your pen write with it, control it. The way I taught it to Brooke is your are just trying to get the barrel behind the ball to give you a longer hitting zone. The old shirt to long through. Ive never told her to take the catchers mask off, if you are doing that your swing is going to be wide and slow.

Brooke is 5'9" and around 150#. We try to hit every night and she works out with a fantastic personal trainer 3x a week for an hr each session. She's a very driven young lady and has had the dream of playing bigtime D1 and hopefully the WCWS.