Critique / Help Series of Swings

[mann]

Knight,

I made/edited this clip of Whitney Larsen from Alabama for you and your daughter.

It is a subtle thing, but watch her rear shoulder - as she starts to launch the barrel her rear shoulder retracts as it drops (lateral tilt) - this allows a deeper barrel turn. Many times hitters are told to swing with level shoulders, but to get a deep barrel turn you need to allow your rear shoulder to drop. This allows her hands to work down to BUT up through the ball....

This is so important, the amount of other mechanics involved from doing this one thing that MTS has pointed out, is crucial,

Last session, while teaching this part of the sequence, i got the 'look".
UHHOOH, who told her to 'not drop her shoulder"? i thought ok, approach this softley, Ok, lets look at some clips"

i can hear the coversation at her house when she gets home already.

Among what MTS has said about the back corner, i like how the transition, from that lean over plate from launch, turning into tilt, working the back shoulder under, keeps the head in the proper spot.

S0 many kids, lean over the plate in their stance, and by the time the bat gets aroung, they are standing tall, shoulders still level, head getting yanked out, then get yelled at to keep their head in their.
Good advice MTS.

 

[rdbass]

 

[MountieSB]

Some comparison - one swing from the back and the other from the front.

I'm not prone to fits of hyperbole, but I think I've learned more about efficient bat path and how to properly hit off the back side in the past two days (with one Stretch & Fire Drill!), than I have in the past 5 years of lurking on this board. Thanks to MTS and rdbass for all of the GIFs and explanations.

 

[Steve Huff]

Hi Steve, on that particular recording, I do not have the upper part. I was focusing on her stride. We were trying to shorten her stride, stop the reach, and not land on a straight leg.



Yes, the tee position is my fault. I had been setting the tee too far in front... from now on deeper tee positions...

Yes, that tee position on inside pitch would be fine, but on the outside it can even facilitate that long stride with the locked knee. She ends up trying to catch up to the ball location overstriding and leaning. Glad you figured it out.

 

[Steve Huff]

I didn't call you a name. You arguement is a "strawman". When you misrepresent a position in a debate. Such as "the bat should never go below the plane of the ball in fastpitch, which other swing does this correlate to?" I show several swings that the bat goes below the plane and on a similiar path as hers and you stance changes you say: "goes to show how much you know about hitting. THE CONTACT POINT never goes below the plane of the ball". So I show that Knights dd path is nearly the same as the gifs....and your stance changes a bit again "I see no uppercut through the zone".
That is a strawman arguement....where you change your statement or your opponents statement and act like it was the original statement. I would never call you a name.
Your credentials, I question why you have to continually talk about them. If you have a stance in something like vertical bat, state your case why.
Now I have entered a post without any information to help the OP, for that I am sorry to the OP.

You provide no video or gif where the plane of the bat goes below the ball. The plane of the bat, is the contact point on the bat, not the bat tip. If the contact point goes below the plane of the ball, you are crossing down through the ball's path, under it, and then back up through that plane as you start to complete extension. So you are on the plane of the ball at two points during the entire swing phase. How is that good? Hers is a girl in D3 that does exactly that! No, you lack fundamental knowledge of hitting physics or you wouldn't say my position changes. You can't swing at any pitch below the waist where your bat stays flat, horizontal to the ground. The bat tip lowers. On a low inside pitch, the bat lowers and the swing plane slants to perhaps 80 degrees at times. You have two axis of plane. Vertical and horizontal. When the bat exceeds a swing plane of greater than 45 degrees, the greater chance of a miss or not squaring up the ball is on the horizontal plane. When the bat is flat, you don't have to judge accurately the horizontal plane because if you are accurate vertically, the ball may contact at any point on the barrel and have solid contact. So a low inside pitch isn't missed on the vertical plane. If it is higher than you thought, the pitched ball hits higher on the barrel.

At no point in the swing of any bat, by any batter, below the back elbow, is the bat tip not lower than the contact point. In none of your gifs, do I see an uppercut of any significance that is visible. Just as in the video below, the contact point goes below the ball and she misses it completely, even though it is a horizontal plane. It is also possible for the "bat" or "contact point" to go below the ball in a low pitch, as knightsb's daughter did. In knightsb, I see his daughter's contact point go below the ball, and that was at full speed. The still shot proves it. You are not helping the OP. As far as names go if you look at facebook, I post issues pertaining to illogical fallacy constantly. In essence it is the same as saying someone is lying. To give you a simplistic picture of my contention I am supplying a graphic, a photo, of the young lady's swing as provided by knightsb. The long arrow shows approximately the contact point, the bat head ("contact point") is below the ball. It will then proceed up through the plane of the ball, in an upper-cut. In your gifs, there is no upper cut that is visible. The top and bottom arrows say, "no". They are not the contact point. IF the "contact point" was on the plane of the ball, then the other arrows would still apply, and the "swing", the "bat", the "bat head",nor the "contact point" would not be below the plane of the ball, and there would be no upper-cut. You have a strange need to obfuscate the issue with persistent ad hominem attacks redhotcoach. Now if her swing is below the ball as shown in the still, and the other girls swings or bat head is upper-cutting, please explain why this is good? If we have an understanding, then please ignore.



Fastpitch Hitting Analysis - College Swing 1 - YouTube

 

[Steve Huff]

Most excellent! As I have stated and been argued against, the bat head follows the hands and back elbow to connection to the hip. He initiates the swing from a loaded position, bat knob at the catcher's feet. Because of his high hand position, the bat level drops, the bat angle stays the same. Once the back elbow catches up to the hip, then you can see the bat tip moving to the right at an accelerated speed, beginning the rotation behind the hands through wrist snap. The hands will continue the wrist snap, and the elbows continue extension. The bat is not launched. Jeter, yes, I think so. None others that I can see. If you look at the hands at the end of "connection" at the hip, you can see the bat knob is pointed down. I believe he is preparing to hit a ball below his back elbow. As a result the bat TIP will be below the ball, and since baseball players uppercut frequently, his bat MAY drop below the ball and do so.

One last point. This is about shoulder drop. Albert's shoulder drops here. But that is the visual. His back shoulder drops because his "arm box", "power box", arm frame is being tilted. That approx. 90 degree elbow separation is tilting. The front elbow determines it. The front elbow creates a straight line alignment with the bat, directing the swing hopefully at the location of the pitch in the zone. If the pitch is high, then that arm box does not tilt. Generally it does, and that makes hitting a rise-ball or high fastball in baseball more difficult (muscle memory). When the front elbow rises, and the arm box tilts, the front shoulder rises, the back shoulder drops. In both of the gifs above of the two girls have created that straight line through the front forearm, down through the bat. They can not do it without the shoulder tilt, caused by the arm box rotating to create the swing. The arms are determining the "side affects" you are evaluating.

 

[redhotcoach]

You provide no video or gif where the plane of the bat goes below the ball. that was not the questionThe plane of the bat, is the contact point on the bat, not the bat tip. I did not say the bat tip is the contact point....you said "bat head" thats what I showed If the contact point goes below the plane of the ball, you are crossing down through the ball's path, under it, and then back up through that plane as you start to complete extension.ONCE again you said bat head...thats what I showed. Why are you adding so much that I never said? So you are on the plane of the ball at two points during the entire swing phase. How is that good? HersHERS?? is a girl in D3 that does exactly that! No, you lack fundamental knowledge of hitting physics or you wouldn't say my position changes.you are changing, I posted gifs to your first statement, you say I lack knowledge because it doesn't show an answer to your statement after you change it twice. You can't swing at any pitch below the waist where your bat stays flat, horizontal to the ground.DUH! I never said you swing flat to the ground The bat tip lowers. On a low inside pitch, the bat lowers and the swing plane slants to perhaps 80 degrees at times. You have two axis of plane. Vertical and horizontal. When the bat exceeds a swing plane of greater than 45 degrees, the greater chance of a miss or not squaring up the ball is on the horizontal plane. When the bat is flat, you don't have to judge accurately the horizontal plane because if you are accurate vertically, the ball may contact at any point on the barrel and have solid contact.So now your saying swing the barrel flat? So a low inside pitch isn't missed on the vertical plane. If it is higher than you thought, the pitched ball hits higher on the barrel.Uh yeah, so if the bat is straight up and down the ball stands more of a chance of missing it to the right or left. If the bat is parallel to the ground, the ball stands more of a chance of missing it above or below. So what?

At no point in the swing of any bat, by any batter, below the back elbow, is the bat tip not lower than the contact point. In none of your gifs, do I see an uppercut of any significance that is visible. Just as in the video below, the contact pointit looks to me that see hit it just on the inside of the sweet spot? Is that what you are trying to say? That she didn't hit it perfect dead center on the sweet spot? goes below the ball and she misses it completely, even though it is a horizontal plane.her hands are above the ball, that is not horizontal, that is diagonal It is also possible for the "bat" or "contact point" to go below the ball in a low pitch, as knightsb's daughter did.what? In knightsb, I see his daughter's contact point go below the ball, and that was at full speed. The still shot proves it.the shot proves what? That she upper cut swings? or she missed the center of the sweet spot? You are not helping the OP.I was before this. As far as names go if you look at facebook, I post issues pertaining to illogical fallacy constantly.I don't care about you In essence it is the same as saying someone is lying. To give you a simplistic picture of my contention I am supplying a graphic, a photo, of the young lady's swing as provided by knightsb.a still photo of an action The long arrow shows approximately the contact point, the bat head ("contact point") is below the ball.so she missed the sweet spot? It will then proceed up through the plane of the ball, in an upper-cut. In your gifs, there is no upper cut that is visible. The top and bottom arrows say, "no". They are not the contact point. IF the "contact point" was on the plane of the ball, then the other arrows would still apply, and the "swing", the "bat", the "bat head",nor the "contact point" would not be below the plane of the ball, and there would be no upper-cut. You have a strange need to obfuscate the issue with persistent ad hominem attacks redhotcoach.Steve, I purposely ignored you until you called me Rdbass, then tried to discredit my post that was to help another...along with several of MTS posts you discredited....your the one attacking! I just responded. Now if her swing is below the ball as shown in the still, and the other girls swings or bat head is upper-cutting, please explain why this is good? If we have an understanding, then please ignore.

View attachment 3109

Fastpitch Hitting Analysis - College Swing 1 - YouTube

1st you say

Why did her bat head come below the plane of the ball

I showed gifs.
Then you say

Well the the photo in #152 (uh there is no photo in post 152 shows that you are wrong about that. The contact point is below the ball.

then you say.

You provide no video or gif where the plane of the bat goes below the ball

is all of this because she hit slightly inside of the center of the sweet spot? A "mis hit" as knight called it. If so, that is a confusing way to say it.

 

[RayR]

Steve Huff,

This in particular makes no sense and probably deserves a more well thought out description with visuals in its own thread....but to humor you I would disagree with your analysis and say "rear shoulder drop" aka lateral tilt is a function of your lower body....

One last point. This is about shoulder drop. Albert's shoulder drops here. But that is the visual. His back shoulder drops because his "arm box", "power box", arm frame is being tilted.

Most excellent! As I have stated and been argued against, the bat head follows the hands and back elbow to connection to the hip. He initiates the swing from a loaded position, bat knob at the catcher's feet. Because of his high hand position, the bat level drops, the bat angle stays the same. Once the back elbow catches up to the hip, then you can see the bat tip moving to the right at an accelerated speed, beginning the rotation behind the hands through wrist snap. The hands will continue the wrist snap, and the elbows continue extension. The bat is not launched. Jeter, yes, I think so. None others that I can see. If you look at the hands at the end of "connection" at the hip, you can see the bat knob is pointed down. I believe he is preparing to hit a ball below his back elbow. As a result the bat TIP will be below the ball, and since baseball players uppercut frequently, his bat MAY drop below the ball and do so.

One last point. This is about shoulder drop. Albert's shoulder drops here. But that is the visual. His back shoulder drops because his "arm box", "power box", arm frame is being tilted. That approx. 90 degree elbow separation is tilting. The front elbow determines it. The front elbow creates a straight line alignment with the bat, directing the swing hopefully at the location of the pitch in the zone. If the pitch is high, then that arm box does not tilt. Generally it does, and that makes hitting a rise-ball or high fastball in baseball more difficult (muscle memory). When the front elbow rises, and the arm box tilts, the front shoulder rises, the back shoulder drops. In both of the gifs above of the two girls have created that straight line through the front forearm, down through the bat. They can not do it without the shoulder tilt, caused by the arm box rotating to create the swing. The arms are determining the "side affects" you are evaluating.

 

[redhotcoach]

She hits the ball a bit on the inside of the sweet spot of the bat...it happens, thats why they make them so big these days.

Bat Head...I believe the head is the end of anything. So yes the BAT HEAD is below the ball.
The CONTACT POINT....to me means the point of the bat that comes in contact with the ball. Her CONTACT POINT does not go below the ball. If you mean the CONTACT POINT as the absolute center of the sweet spot, then yes her's is below the ball. I did not give her advice on this...the burden of proof doesn't lay on me.

 

[rdbass]

I'm not prone to fits of hyperbole, but I think I've learned more about efficient bat path and how to properly hit off the back side in the past two days (with one Stretch & Fire Drill!), than I have in the past 5 years of lurking on this board. Thanks to MTS and rdbass for all of the GIFs and explanations.

RedHotcoach and MTS have helped me alot in the explaination of the proper way to perform the SNF. MountieSB, I'm glad your open to learning something that maybe alittle different. It's all to help explain the feel to the DD's.