Illegal batter?

[corlay]

Tried to research this scenario in the asa rule book, but couldnt find applicability to this exact scenario:
(This is a bit of a bookkeepers trainwreck...)

Bookkeeper for visiting team A copies lineup from a previous game and submits to opposing home team B. Lineup *does not* include Player A, who was absent from prior game , but is present for current game.

Opposing team B discovers Player A has entered game and batted (#3 spot), affer she has successfully reached base, and the following Player B (#3 spot according to lineup card) has also successfully batted and reached base. Protest is made by opposing Team B is made prior to any pitch throw to the next #4 batter - Player C.

What is the correct ruling?

Basically, a player batted who was mistakenly not listed in the lineup submitted to opposing team, and thus created a strange illegal player and batting out of order scenario.

 

[Momo'sDad]

Ok, I'll take 1st crack at this, knowing I'm most likely wrong in part 2.

1) Your player A (B3) is safe and now you have a new batting order established. She stays where she is.

2) Your player B became the new B4. Ordinarily, because you caught the error before a pitch to B5, then the player who should've batted B4 is the player who is called out.....except that the new B4 DID bat in the B4 slot.

Here's how I think it may have played out:

New B3 is still safe, but now that the error has been caught, the new batting order is now official, meaning that new B4 is the same as the B4 who already batted. Therefore, B4 who has reached safely has to come back and bat again, but NO OUT is recorded, because she did hit in the right slot based on the new order.

Comp??

 

[FPump]

Reading from your post.....

1) Team A's lineup card does not have Player A listed.
2) Player A (without any notification from Team A) enters the game and comes to the plate to bat in #3 spot in the order.
3) Player A reaches base.
4) Player B (listed as #3 in batting order) bats and reaches base.
5) Team B prior to a pitch being thrown Player C (listed #4 in batting order) proceeds to properly protest to the PU.

The way I'm looking at it is that by rule, Team B has done two things wrong here, but neither one is a BOO, so we're dealing with Rule 4 Sec. 6 Substitutes/Illegal Players not Rule 7 Sec.2 Batting Order.

Player A (see #2) was an Unreported Substitute She came into the game for Player B who was listed #3 in the batting order.
Because of when Player A's entry into the game was discovered after completing her turn at bat and after the next pitch Player A is officially in the game.......Rule 4 Sec. 6 (C.4)

Player B was an Illegal Re-Entry (see#4), a starting player who returned to the game, but not in their original position in the batting order.....Rule 4 Sec.F (4 b.) the Effect is Player B is disqualified. The advance of Player A during Player B's at bat is negated.
Player C (#4 hitter) is in the batters box, (see#5).

 

[corlay]

Here's how I think it may have played out:

New B3 is still safe, but now that the error has been caught, the new batting order is now official, meaning that new B4 is the same as the B4 who already batted. Therefore, B4 who has reached safely has to come back and bat again, but NO OUT is recorded, because she did hit in the right slot based on the new order.

You are very close to what actually happend.
The only difference is we took an out for batter B.

Batter A was moved back to 1B. Batter B batted again, #3 spot. Batter A was inserted at the *bottom* of the lineup.

I knew this wasnt correct, but ump didnt know the ruling, and both coaches accepted this solution.

 

[corlay]

Player B was an Illegal Re-Entry (see#4), a starting player who returned to the game, but not in their original position in the batting order.....Rule 4 Sec.F (4 b.) the Effect is Player B is disqualified.

this part is hard to understand, because it was the top of the 1st inning, Player B never played in the game before she came up to bat in the #4 spot.

But I guess the reasoning is:

1. The *only* way Player A can enter the game is through "substitution" becasue she was not listed on the original lineup card.
2. Since Player A batted in the #3 spot, then by virtue of that "substitution" she is now the legal #3 player because the "unreported substitution" was not discovered until after she successfully batted, reached base, and a pitch was thrown to the next batter.
3. Also since Player A batted #3, then Player B is now "substituted" (even though she hasn't batted or played the field yet)
4. By virtue of #1,#2,#3 above, the *only* legal way for substituted Player B to re-enter game is by substituting back to her #3 spot. Since she batted #4, she is disqualified.

So for my own education, with Rule 4 Sec.F (4 b.), is there any time-limit on discovery? what if the inning proceeded to conclusion, and was not discovered until next inning, for example. (hard to imagine how this could possibly happen without discovery if one or both bookkeepers are paying any attention!)

So would a way around the issue be to:
a.) don't bat Player B - #4
b.) instead, substitute Player B for Player A (currently on 1B) and bat Player C - #4 as lineup card indicates.
c.) Then insert player A at the end of the lineup card?
(This Tournament's rules allowed for inserting players arriving late to game at end of lineup)
Therefore all "legal" and no outs/disqualifications?

Although this solution also creates a sort of weird doppleganger, where since Player A is now the "Legal" #3 batter, if player B substitutes back to #3 spot and Player A re-inserts to the bottom on the lineup that may technically violate Illegal Re-Entry Rule 4 Sec.F (4 b.)?

 

[Ajaywill]

Player A and Player B are locked into the lineup in the #3 batting spot and CANNOT be in the game at the same time. No player and his/her substitute may be in the game at the same time.

Local rules aside, this team is stuck with having EITHER player A OR player B in the lineup, but not both at the same time.

 

[eddieq]

The "time limit" on discovery is at the pre-game meeting where lineups become official. Once that happens, no changes may be made (outside of normal substitutions allowed within the rules).