Unconventional or Illegal Pitch?

[jbalmer69]

Little League International Rules:

1. Pitcher takes position on rubber with hands separated - legal
2. Pitcher swings pitching arm back from above position, and does not bring hands together in front of her body
3. Pitcher swings pitching arm and glove hand forward, bringing ball and glove hand together, over and behind head
4. Pitcher separates hands when over and behind head, then swings both hands behind body
5. Pitcher finally goes into windmill delivery.

Counting the very first half back swing, pitcher passes hip with ball in hand (separated) 3 times including the last pass to release the pitch.

I feel this pitch is illegal based on the following rules:

A. Pitcher does not bring hands together in front of her body for at least 1 second
(I don't feel bringing back and behind head would satisfy this rule, even with pause)

B. After separating hands from over and behind head (pitch starts per rule), pitcher does not immediately deliver pitch

C. After separating hands above and behind head, pitcher reverses forward motion by swinging arm back behind body

I believe the extra arm swing provides an unfair advantage as pitcher is able to generate more body momentum and force, as well as deception.

Any umpire input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Comp]

Nothing in the rules say anything about how many times past the hip the ball or arm goes.

The pitch does not start until the hands have been brought together and then separated. The initial back swing before the hands touch is nothing.

I suppose one could argue the hands arent being brought together in front of the body, but she is bringing hands together in view of the umpire so it would be a real nit pick of the rules.

It is impossible to verify if the pitcher has actually had the hands together for 1 second. Was it .8, .9 or 1 full second? Most clinics I have been in say the hands touching together satisfy the requirements of the rule.

What forward motion has the pitcher reversed? The pitch does not start until the hands have been brought together and separated. She is allowed to swing the arm back, once the hands have been brought together, separated and the arm swung to the back, then the pitcher may not reverse forward motion.

The whole immediately delivering the pitch is kind of like the lookback rule in that the runner must immediately choose to go one way or the other. The purpose of the rule is to keep the pitcher from separating the hands and then just standing there with the ball. Again, if you want to nit pick it, any pitcher that swings the arm back after separating the hands does not "immediately" deliver the ball.

 

[jbalmer69]

Good reply, consider this:

1. Forward motion has begun once the initial half backswing up to hands over head, if hands remained together back down to hip, or if pitcher continues directly to windmill after bringing hands together overhead, and did not take an additional full backswing with hands separated, I'd be okay with it. But separating hands to me is a game changer.

2. Immediate delivery could never be accomplished with a full backswing after separating from over head

3. Half back swing from hip after separating hands is legal, nowhere does rule allow for a complete full backswing from overhead before starting windmill

4. The rule states a windup must not be used that has a stop or reversal, not the pitch

5. If using technicality of the pitch starting when hands separate, then you could get technical with the pitch must be forward and underhand, which could not happen if arm swings backwards

6. I understand no rule mentions crossing hips, but they do discuss revolutions

 

[Comp]

I missed the little league rule cite on the op. Have no idea about little league rules, they are more baseball oriented and are not published that I know of for anyone to look at. For any other softball rule set excluding NCAA there is nothing you describe I see as illegal.

 

[Comp]

The following is in relation to every other rule set except little league and NCAA.

1. Forward motion has begun once the initial half backswing up to hands over head, if hands remained together back down to hip, or if pitcher continues directly to windmill after bringing hands together overhead, and did not take an additional full backswing with hands separated, I'd be okay with it. But separating hands to me is a game changer.

The pitch does not start until the hands have been brought together and separated. Before the hands touch the pitcher can wave her arms around and do the hokey pokey for the most part. Once the hands come together and separate is when the pitcher is then bound by the pitch delivery rules. The initial back swing before the hands come together is absolutely nothing.

2. Immediate delivery could never be accomplished with a full backswing after separating from over head

A video was just posted about a month ago on an umpire forum (I cannot copy and paste it here) of a pitcher who does a complete reverse rotation of the arm prior to starting the forward motion after bringing the hands together and separating them. The video has been reviewed by numerous UIC's, State rule interpreters etc and none have found the motion to be illegal.

3. Half back swing from hip after separating hands is legal, nowhere does rule allow for a complete full backswing from overhead before starting windmill

Again, see comment above. Please cite rule stating the back swing is limited to only a half back swing?

4. The rule states a windup must not be used that has a stop or reversal, not the pitch

No, the rule states the pitcher shall not make a stop or reversal of the "forward" motion after separating the hands.

5. If using technicality of the pitch starting when hands separate, then you could get technical with the pitch must be forward and underhand, which could not happen if arm swings backwards

[/QUOTE

The rule specifically allows for the pitcher to drop the arm back, not sure what your point is here. And the rules do require the pitch to be forward and underhand.

6. I understand no rule mentions crossing hips, but they do discuss revolutions

Yes it discusses revolutions, which are forward revolutions. The back swing does not count toward the total number of allowed rotations. In fact the NFHS rules cite clockwise revolutions. The USA rule says the pitcher shall not make 2 revolutions in the windmill motion. It goes on to state the pitcher may drop the arm to the side and rear before starting the windmill motion. This refers to the forward rotation of the arm, not the backswing.

 

[jbalmer69]

Let me try to break down what I'm trying to convey:

1: pitcher does a half backswing BEFORE hands come together. I'm ok with that, but then expect the hands to come together "in front of her body" for at least a one second pause. Does above and behind her head satisfy in front of body? FYI - LL requires a one second pause with hands motionless, unlike USSSA, which allows motion. In this case hands are in motion, and behind the head does create deception as the ball and glove are hidden to the hitter.

* Is the initial half back swing a half revolution? In other words, how do you get a half revolution as USSSA says 1.5 revolutions max? Do they count the allowable side and back swing as a half revolution, or the finish after release in front of the body as a half revolution? Regardless, all sanctions allow for 1.5 or 2 revolutions, so passing the hip matters as halves are measured.

2: "A pitcher may DROP and swing the pitching arm to the side and rear before starting the windmill motion."

* It does not say it is allowable to SWING the arm from above pitchers head to the rear of her body. Dropping would equate to the backswing starting from the hip, or a location close to it.

** Every pitcher I have observed either "drive down" through their body "hiding the ball" after hands are brought together and immediately start the windmill ( forward delivery), or bring hands together and drop to their side and do a half backswing before starting their forward windmill delivery. I've never seen a pitcher complete a full backswing after hands separate.

** My DD throws 2-3 MPH harder utilizing this motion due to the "extra arm swing", but I refuse to let her do it in fear of it being illegal.

 

[Comp]

I have answered your questions twice now, asking the same thing over and over is not going to change my response.

 

[jbalmer69]

I have answered your questions twice now, asking the same thing over and over is not going to change my response.

Sorry Comp, I replied again simply to try and clarify further for anyone else who may want to chime in as i want to paint an accurate picture; it's an odd style at a minimum.

FYI - LL has a thorough book on softball rules, but unless coaching or umpiring I believe you have to pay to access them; we get the book free.

 

[MTR]

I have answered your questions twice now, asking the same thing over and over is not going to change my response.

Are you sure? A lot of people in this country, especially those allegedly considered the "media" must believe it helps since they practice is repeatedly.

 

[inde53546]

Is she sling shotting or figure 8? Thats kind of what im picturing