Thrown Glove with Ball.
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There are differing opinions on this between baseball and softball.
In softball (and baseball as well), a fielder in possession of the ball can touch the base with in part of her body including the glove. This includes possessing the ball in your bare right hand and slapping the base with your left glove hand. That satisfies the requirement for tagging a base on a force play. Obviously, this is not sufficient on a tag play (tagging a non-forced runner with an empty glove with the ball in the other hand).
Another defender's body is not a "legal" extension of the other defender's body. In other words, F4 cannot extend her body by contacting F3, regardless of how intimate they become. I belief is that F3 does not have control of the ball. That is because F3 is incapable of voluntarily releasing the ball. Only F4 can do that in this scenario. Additionally, a catch (i.e, possession) is not established until the ball is in the grasp of the defender's hand and/or glove. That requirement is not satisfied either.
In June 1999, the New York Yankees were hosting the New York Mets in an interleague game. El Duque was on the mound and stretched to his right just in time to grab Ray Ordonez's chopper up the middle. Unable to remove the ball from his glove, El Duque fired the entire glove, including the ball, to first baseman Tino Martinez, who caught the entire glove. Ordonez was ruled out. Only when Martinez returned the glove to El Duque was he able to remove the ball from his webbing.
Regarding the El Duque type play.
Play: B1 hits a one-hopper to F1. F1 is unable to extricate the ball from her glove so F1 tosses her glove with the ball inside to F3 at first base before B1 arrives. Ruling: ASA: ASA National Rules Interpreter and Chief Clinician at the time ruled on 03-02-1981 that B1 is out. The 2013 NCAA Rulebook under 9.7.3 Effect A.R. 9.7.3 reads, “With two outs and base runners on first and second bases, the batter hits a hard one-hopper to the shortstop. The ball lodges in the web of the glove.”
Ruling: If the glove with the ball can be tossed to the second or third baseman for a possible out, the ball is live, the runner is out and play allowed. The only association I’ve ever found that disallows the out and awards the batter-runner second base in such a situation is NFHS High School Baseball under rules and casebook plays under 5-1-1f-5, 5.1.1Q and 5.1.1r. (Have your car running and facing out in the parking lot.)
The Official Baseball Rules (Pro) by Official Interpretation 29-33 and NCAA Baseball (8-5i A.R. 4) rules the play stands and the runner is out. Note: Major League Umpire, owner of Harry Wendelsted’s Umpire School in Official Interpretation 29-33: Wendelstedt wrote: “Any ball, batted or thrown, that gets stuck in a fielder’s glove remains in play. If a fielder holds the glove with the ball securely, it is the same as holding the ball in MLB and Minor League Baseball (04-23-2012). However, Hunter Wendelstedt offered a dissenting view in his personal Authoritative Opinion by writing, “My staff and I disagree and believe that this should be treated as a lodged ball. We also think that this should be the same interpretation as for a ball that goes into a player’s uniform.”
In softball (and baseball as well), a fielder in possession of the ball can touch the base with in part of her body including the glove. This includes possessing the ball in your bare right hand and slapping the base with your left glove hand. That satisfies the requirement for tagging a base on a force play. Obviously, this is not sufficient on a tag play (tagging a non-forced runner with an empty glove with the ball in the other hand).
Another defender's body is not a "legal" extension of the other defender's body. In other words, F4 cannot extend her body by contacting F3, regardless of how intimate they become. I belief is that F3 does not have control of the ball. That is because F3 is incapable of voluntarily releasing the ball. Only F4 can do that in this scenario. Additionally, a catch (i.e, possession) is not established until the ball is in the grasp of the defender's hand and/or glove. That requirement is not satisfied either.
In June 1999, the New York Yankees were hosting the New York Mets in an interleague game. El Duque was on the mound and stretched to his right just in time to grab Ray Ordonez's chopper up the middle. Unable to remove the ball from his glove, El Duque fired the entire glove, including the ball, to first baseman Tino Martinez, who caught the entire glove. Ordonez was ruled out. Only when Martinez returned the glove to El Duque was he able to remove the ball from his webbing.
Regarding the El Duque type play.
Play: B1 hits a one-hopper to F1. F1 is unable to extricate the ball from her glove so F1 tosses her glove with the ball inside to F3 at first base before B1 arrives. Ruling: ASA: ASA National Rules Interpreter and Chief Clinician at the time ruled on 03-02-1981 that B1 is out. The 2013 NCAA Rulebook under 9.7.3 Effect A.R. 9.7.3 reads, “With two outs and base runners on first and second bases, the batter hits a hard one-hopper to the shortstop. The ball lodges in the web of the glove.”
Ruling: If the glove with the ball can be tossed to the second or third baseman for a possible out, the ball is live, the runner is out and play allowed. The only association I’ve ever found that disallows the out and awards the batter-runner second base in such a situation is NFHS High School Baseball under rules and casebook plays under 5-1-1f-5, 5.1.1Q and 5.1.1r. (Have your car running and facing out in the parking lot.)
The Official Baseball Rules (Pro) by Official Interpretation 29-33 and NCAA Baseball (8-5i A.R. 4) rules the play stands and the runner is out. Note: Major League Umpire, owner of Harry Wendelsted’s Umpire School in Official Interpretation 29-33: Wendelstedt wrote: “Any ball, batted or thrown, that gets stuck in a fielder’s glove remains in play. If a fielder holds the glove with the ball securely, it is the same as holding the ball in MLB and Minor League Baseball (04-23-2012). However, Hunter Wendelstedt offered a dissenting view in his personal Authoritative Opinion by writing, “My staff and I disagree and believe that this should be treated as a lodged ball. We also think that this should be the same interpretation as for a ball that goes into a player’s uniform.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P97YGzkCRj4
I'd love to hear why this is not legal at ANY level...CP
I'd love to hear why this is not legal at ANY level...CP
HS baseball has a case section about this play being illegal--in fact it is penalized the same as detached equipment with a 2 base award.
Umpire--excellent response--I have just appointed you as my go to rules guy.
( I umpire NYC HS softball and travel ball in Long Island)
I called Jay Minor ( head rules interpreter for N.Y.S. Softball Association which covers all public HS softball in NY, which uses ASA)
He told me that he was stumped and gave me the exact same examples as Umpire.
He is checking for the NFHS ruling in softball, since this situation is not mentioned in either the rulebook or case book.
He did say that because NFHS baseball does not allow it he is leaning towards the same ruling in softball, but that is a big assumption.
No, in FED baseball this isn't treated the same as detached equipment. It's treated as a ball that becomes lodged in a defensive player's uniform or equipment.
The main difference is that for detached equipment you have a delayed dead ball and runners may advance beyond their awarded bases. For a lodged ball, the ball is immediately dead.
As noted, FED baseball is unique in their ruling. This is a fairly recent interpretation on their part. The interpretation and case play were added about ten years ago. For softball, no such ruling has been issued.
Just going from memory here...if I recall correctly, NFHS issued a ruling for softball a few years ago that specifically said this was a legal play. It was one of the yearly rule interpretations that they publish in their pre-season guide. I hate to hang my hat on "I think I remember", but going back through all those old pre-season guides will take some digging.
The main difference is that for detached equipment you have a delayed dead ball and runners may advance beyond their awarded bases. For a lodged ball, the ball is immediately dead.
As noted, FED baseball is unique in their ruling. This is a fairly recent interpretation on their part. The interpretation and case play were added about ten years ago. For softball, no such ruling has been issued.
Just going from memory here...if I recall correctly, NFHS issued a ruling for softball a few years ago that specifically said this was a legal play. It was one of the yearly rule interpretations that they publish in their pre-season guide. I hate to hang my hat on "I think I remember", but going back through all those old pre-season guides will take some digging.
Thanks--that sounds pretty much as a ruling to me.
As long as it is not listed as a penalty in the rule/case book I will assume that it is legal.
