The Kelly Barnhill Thread

[SoftballMom2]

It most certainly does apply. Are you actually holding Barnill and Silkwood up as model pitchers? Are you serious that you would teach an illegal pitching method to a developing pitcher in the hope that it might somehow provide a competitive advantage? Promoting and teaching this would not only be a disservice to developing pitchers, but it would show a total lack of ethics and disrespect for the sport. The vast majority of the softball community would never go there. People need to understand that no pitcher in the womens game learned this by design. It was the result of poor coaching and being surrounded by enablers saying "Well if she can get away with it..."

Understand that the Hanson principle does not mean you find one off the wall pitcher and model all others after them. All pitchers have mechanical defects. You find common traits among the best of the best, that make mechanical sense and increase performance. Things like IR and BI. Not jumping up in the air, pointing your plant foot toward 2nd base and stride foot toward home, landing and pushing off and throwing ILLEGALLY! That is not the Hanson principle. That is simply using an outlier to justify ones opinion. Kind of like arguing against seat belts because they may trap your in your car if you drive into a lake.

Riseball, I hear you and agree. My daughter is mechanically sound..she continues to work on her craft, working on little things and her flaws that creep in. She is same size as Barnhill, very strong and athletic..She looks fluid and balanced and ashe a HS sophomore tops out at 65mph right now. (Has hit 66, been clocked consistently 64-65 in games) However I'll be honest it has crossed my mind.. if she did what Barnhill did would she be able to hit 70s like her??? Maybe....

 

[Rocketech1]

If you want to set your kid up to be a mid-tier pitcher who will excel in HS ball and will be subject to getting pulled at any minute, turn her into a dump truck.

Riseball - I understand your concern and frustration with trying to develop pitchers with legal mechanics but I will respectively disagree with the above statement that kids are being set-up to be a mid-tier pitcher if they use pitching mechanics not conforming to the rule book. Some of these pitchers include Ally Carda (Team USA, UCLA), Cat Osterman (Team USA (gold & silver medal), Univ of Texas), Dallas Escobedo (2011 WCWS champions, ASU), and Kelly Barnhill (Team USA, Florida). Doesn't seem like pitching illegally has hurt any of their careers?

 

[Snotbubbles]

Riseball, I hear you and agree. My daughter is mechanically sound..she continues to work on her craft, working on little things and her flaws that creep in. She is same size as Barnhill, very strong and athletic..She looks fluid and balanced and ashe a HS sophomore tops out at 65mph right now. (Has hit 66, been clocked consistently 64-65 in games) However I'll be honest it has crossed my mind.. if she did what Barnhill did would she be able to hit 70s like her??? Maybe....

IMO, it's foolish not to test it out and see.

 

[riseball]

Riseball - I understand your concern and frustration with trying to develop pitchers with legal mechanics but I will respectively disagree with the above statement that kids are being set-up to be a mid-tier pitcher if they use pitching mechanics not conforming to the rule book. Some of these pitchers include Ally Carda (Team USA, UCLA), Cat Osterman (Team USA (gold & silver medal), Univ of Texas), Dallas Escobedo (2011 WCWS champions, ASU), and Kelly Barnhill (Team USA, Florida). Doesn't seem like pitching illegally has hurt any of their careers?

So you see no difference in someone who due to inadequate coaching ends up illegal and someone who by design throws that way knowing full well that it is illegal? You say that pitching illegally, ergo their mechanics have not hurt their careers. How did you determine this? Are you saying that if you had skin in the game and were developing a pitcher you would teach them to throw with Kelly Barnhill mechanics? Jump in the air, replant, no BI? That is your plan for success?

 

[riseball]

IMO, it's foolish not to test it out and see.

Just so I am clear you would advocate taking a 2019 pitcher with great mechanics throwing 65-66mph and totally change their mechanics to get them to a velocity they will attain naturally by the time they get to college??? You would to some degree, sacrifice existing command and movement for an immediate short term gain that may or may not doom them in the future? When most pitchers parents shudder at their kid spending 2 hours at a camp that even hints at HE I think you would have a hard time selling this to anyone with skin in the game.

 

[SoftballMom2]

Just so I am clear you would advocate taking a 2019 pitcher with great mechanics throwing 65-66mph and totally change their mechanics to get them to a velocity they will attain naturally by the time they get to college??? You would to some degree, sacrifice existing command and movement for an immediate short term gain that may or may not doom them in the future? When most pitchers parents shudder at their kid spending 2 hours at a camp that even hints at HE I think you would have a hard time selling this to anyone with skin in the game.

My DD may or may not get more speed.It's fun to dream but we are realists..I also point out Alexis Osorio who keeps her riseball in the 63range.. DD hit 65mph a year ago.She jumped from 60 to 65 in one year due to i think physical maturity and focus on better mechanics. So maybe that's all she'll get to. But I think she got to 65 BECAUSE of her dedication and her PCs dedication to the correct mechanics. PC never would accept a strike as a" good pitch "if not thrown correctly. She always threw hard for her age but we always told her doesnt mean a thing if its out of the zone or she's injured. She always tried to throw hard but as she matured she realized her legs and correct timing and sequence play huge role. For her at least..

 

[riseball]

My DD may or may not get more speed.It's fun to dream but we are realists..I also point out Alexis Osorio who keeps her riseball in the 63range.. DD hit 65mph a year ago.She jumped from 60 to 65 in one year due to i think physical maturity and focus on better mechanics. So maybe that's all she'll get to. But I think she got to 65 BECAUSE of her dedication and her PCs dedication to the correct mechanics. PC never would accept a strike as a" good pitch "if not thrown correctly. She always threw hard for her age but we always told her doesnt mean a thing if its out of the zone or she's injured. She always tried to throw hard but as she matured she realized her legs and correct timing and sequence play huge role. For her at least..

Always refreshing to hear from a pitchers mom who gets it!!!

 

[Rocketech1]

So you see no difference in someone who due to inadequate coaching ends up illegal and someone who by design throws that way knowing full well that it is illegal? You say that pitching illegally, ergo their mechanics have not hurt their careers. How did you determine this? Are you saying that if you had skin in the game and were developing a pitcher you would teach them to throw with Kelly Barnhill mechanics? Jump in the air, replant, no BI? That is your plan for success?

I don't think any of the pitchers mentioned above are intentionally pitching that way to gain an advantage and pitch illegally. More likely its they got comfortable with that style at the younger ages and after pitching that way for 1,000 and 1,000 of pitches it becomes ingrained (and extremely difficult to change). Contrary to popular belief on this site, there is nothing "natural" about leap & drag mechanics and the default for the pitching stride is a "leap" just like any other athletic move performed in grade school (running, jumping, hop scotch, long jump, jump rope, skipping, etc.). Having a person moving forward and anchoring their back foot to drag along the ground is completly unnatural. This is exactly why you see so many pitchers not dragging their back pivot, countless 100's of pitchers in non-compliance, and we have a thread with 235+ posts! There is more going on here than just pitchers trying to gain an advantage. Something's broke...let's address the real issue and not make Barnhill the scapegoat...

 

[riseball]

While I agree that a leap may be more natural, it is still illegal so it is a moot point. That said I am sure you agree that there is a huge difference between a leap and a jump and replant. There is an even bigger difference between a mechanical defect and being a poster child for being enabled to blatantly disregard the rules of the game. The rules may very well need to be modified and maybe that needs to be discussed. But make no mistake, it is the enablers, the umpires, coaches, and parents that have gotten us to this point. To me what is truly distressing is how many are willing disregard the rules of the game because at best they simply disagree with the rule or worse desire to gain a competitive advantage. There is simply no excuse for disregarding or not enforcing the rules of the game. If you are unable or unwilling to compete or officiate with integrity, there is no place for you in this game.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Just so I am clear you would advocate taking a 2019 pitcher with great mechanics throwing 65-66mph and totally change their mechanics to get them to a velocity they will attain naturally by the time they get to college??? You would to some degree, sacrifice existing command and movement for an immediate short term gain that may or may not doom them in the future? When most pitchers parents shudder at their kid spending 2 hours at a camp that even hints at HE I think you would have a hard time selling this to anyone with skin in the game.

You continue to do this whenever someone mentions speed, speed and command are NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE events. If Player X can go from 65 to 70 mph and maintain command by leaping, yeah, I'd advocate giving it a try. The greatest risk is not taking one.