Teaching your DD to throw the right pitch.

[javasource]

We sometimes play pitchers who don't have a curve, so let's say the outside change was a "rule" (ie, habit of the pitcher/coach/catcher.) We already narrowed outside to drop (not curve), and if we can narrow change to only outside, wow, I would love that. Helps us decide how to attack. Then we can look at spin or something to pick up the change.

Yeah... I have my pitchers and catchers hold a sign up before each pitch that says, "Dear batter, here comes a change." The whole point of a change is that they don't know it's coming... So I could care less if they know where the ball is going to end up on a change... because their bat will have passed that spot long before the pitch arrives.

Why would you throw only outside drops?! Geesh... that's half the problem, right there...

 

[Greenmonsters]

I get what you're saying Green... and I'm in no way saying that they must be in this order... or they must be this location. These are just a few sample scenarios that can be pretty effective.

However...

In lieu of your comment on the change... if you're throwing a change you're doing so to disrupt timing, right?
Would you agree that the batter would be ahead of the pitch...
... and that the center of the bat will have already traveled over the center of the plate?
And if you agree to that... would you agree that the meat of the bat... would more effectively meet the ball if it was located inside - as 'inside' is the last place it travels?

Off-speed pitches give the pitcher a timing advantage over the hitter... throwing off-speed inside, gives the advantage back to the hitter, giving the center of their bat, the best opportunity to contact the ball. This creates what I call, "head turners". Here are a few examples. The green circle is the location of the pitch. These are all change-ups/off-speed... and they are all on the inside... not over the plate... especially the second one. If there was sound, you'd hear, "Yard!"

....

I'll keep my change-ups low and out the majority of the time.

No, I don't agree. You have to be sooner and quicker to get to the inside pitch and should be waiting and letting the ball get deeper on the outside pitch. So with more time, on the outside pitch the hitter can see the ball a little longer and may ID the change of speed and be able to react to it. That said, its probably not going to leave the yard.

re the gifs you posted, #1 and #4 look a little fat and seem to have at least some of the plate. #2 and #3 look to be more inside, but both notably off of Texas A&M w/ the hitter looking like they were sitting on the change in example #3. Maybe Texas A&M was too predictable in their sequencing? We have 4 examples of HRs on change ups here and any change hit for HR seems to be a catastrophe. Well, IMO many more FBs, curves, screws, drops, rises etc leave the yard than change ups, yet we have the same gut reaction and stop throwing them? When you don't throw the change inside, you make the pitcher's inside stuff much easier to hit because the hitters then KNOW that everything inside is coming hard, which simplifies their timing. If there's that much worry about the inside change, instead of not throwing it inside at all, just throw it further inside.

 

[javasource]

No, I don't agree. You have to be sooner and quicker to get to the inside pitch and should be waiting and letting the ball get deeper on the outside pitch.

All of those pitches were hit out in front of the batter.... way out in front... which is why they are pulled into the yard. I'd say the batter was later... not sooner.

So with more time, on the outside pitch the hitter can see the ball a little longer and may ID the change of speed and be able to react to it. That said, its probably not going to leave the yard.

You're right, it won't leave the yard... because they can't sit on the pitch. Look, I don't care what the pitch is... if you're waiting after release to pick up the pitch, you're not going to fair well. If your timing is on with a change of speed... you shouldn't be seeing one... OR... you knew it was coming BEFORE it was released.

Bat control WITHIN a swing is not the same thing as the timing of the swing.

re the gifs you posted, #1 and #4 look a little fat and seem to have at least some of the plate. #2 and #3 look to be more inside, but both notably off of Texas A&M w/ the hitter looking like they were sitting on the change in example #3. Maybe Texas A&M was too predictable in their sequencing?

I think that is a point we agree on. They obviously knew that the change was coming... and it was coming fat and/or in.

We have 4 examples of HRs on change ups here and any change hit for HR seems to be a catastrophe.

I would say that is true of any pitch that leaves the yard... hence the pitchers need for a short memory... and the coaches need for a notebook.

Well, IMO many more FBs, curves, screws, drops, rises etc leave the yard than change ups, yet we have the same gut reaction and stop throwing them?

Green, I respond to you because I enjoy the conversation... your statement here sounds a little snarky. In that light, I would hope that 5 times as many types of pitches would leave the yard more than one type...

You might note that I used the word "majority" when talking about the change being outside... not absolute. I call them in different places too... but I don't over-think and over-pitch what a change up is. It's a pitch that should be 'surprisingly' slower than the heat pitches.... and kept at or below the knees. It's a timing pitch. You can have pitchers throw it in a thousand places... and we'll walk around the bases, waiting for that first strike to arrive. I've seen WAY TO MANY coaches out-pitch the situation... and the pitch.

When you don't throw the change inside, you make the pitcher's inside stuff much easier to hit because the hitters then KNOW that everything inside is coming hard, which simplifies their timing. If there's that much worry about the inside change, instead of not throwing it inside at all, just throw it further inside.

Again, if you're waiting on determining the direction of the pitch, I'll take my chances. I'm calling a pitch because I believe it's what the batter will MISS... not contact... and the pitcher better believe she's throwing to strike out the batter, not give her one to put in play. If they are to contact it, the goal is to keep it off the meat of the bat.

Anyway... just my opinions - thank you for yours.

 

[Greenmonsters]

All of those pitches were hit out in front of the batter.... way out in front... which is why they are pulled into the yard. I'd say the batter was later... not sooner.



You're right, it won't leave the yard... because they can't sit on the pitch. Look, I don't care what the pitch is... if you're waiting after release to pick up the pitch, you're not going to fair well. If your timing is on with a change of speed... you shouldn't be seeing one... OR... you knew it was coming BEFORE it was released.

Bat control WITHIN a swing is not the same thing as the timing of the swing.



I think that is a point we agree on. They obviously knew that the change was coming... and it was coming fat and/or in.



I would say that is true of any pitch that leaves the yard... hence the pitchers need for a short memory... and the coaches need for a notebook.



Green, I respond to you because I enjoy the conversation... your statement here sounds a little snarky. In that light, I would hope that 5 times as many types of pitches would leave the yard more than one type...

You might note that I used the word "majority" when talking about the change being outside... not absolute. I call them in different places too... but I don't over-think and over-pitch what a change up is. It's a pitch that should be 'surprisingly' slower than the heat pitches.... and kept at or below the knees. It's a timing pitch. You can have pitchers throw it in a thousand places... and we'll walk around the bases, waiting for that first strike to arrive. I've seen WAY TO MANY coaches out-pitch the situation... and the pitch.



Again, if you're waiting on determining the direction of the pitch, I'll take my chances. I'm calling a pitch because I believe it's what the batter will MISS... not contact... and the pitcher better believe she's throwing to strike out the batter, not give her one to put in play. If they are to contact it, the goal is to keep it off the meat of the bat.

Anyway... just my opinions - thank you for yours.

Seems we're not on the same page philosophically on a couple things here, but that's OK! However, I would like to get a clarification on your thinking on timing for inside v. outside pitches in general. IMO, to hit the ball squarely, the ideal point of contact for an inside pitch v. an outside pitch is approx. 1.5-2 feet closer to the pitcher's point of release. That equates to approx. 5% (2 ft/40 ft) less time that a hitter has to hit an inside pitch than an outside pitch. IMO, a good hitter will have made the decision to swing pre-pitch and will only abort the swing if they recognize that it is not the pitch type or in the area that constituted their predetermined go zone i.e., a good hitter does not wait to read the pitch to decide if they will swing, rather they decide to stop their swing after reading the pitch. So for an inside pitch, the final decision to continue the swing/abort the swing has to happen sooner than it does for an outside pitch; which means that a hitter has more time to adjust for an outside pitch.

PS I obviously wasn't clear but was intending to note that I believe that the yarded change % is less than the % of any other specific pitch type, not all other pitches cummulatively (i.e, % yarded FBs OR % yarded screws OR.... rather than FB AND screws AND...), yet it seems to be a greater sin and used as justification to not throw it when it happens on change up. Except if the pitcher telegraphs every change, it should be shelved until further refined.

 

[Rocketech1]

Generally agree with Java. IME, it always seems like the batter always gets the bat on the ball for the inside changeup. The outside changeup seems to result in more swing and misses because the fat part of the bat will have already traveled through the outside corner of the plate before the ball gets there.

 

[Greenmonsters]

Generally agree with Java. IME, it always seems like the batter always gets the bat on the ball for the inside changeup. The outside changeup seems to result in more swing and misses because the fat part of the bat will have already traveled through the outside corner of the plate before the ball gets there.

If you're after a K or a swing and miss on a change, then outside is a better bet. An inside change results in more foul balls. If you don't throw the change both inside and outside, you make a hitter's job much easier. And if you only throw a change up when you are ahead in the count or in any specific count, you again are doing hitters a big favor.

Very interesting to note that the 4 change up HR clips shown are ALL with 2 strike counts.

 

[javasource]

However, I would like to get a clarification on your thinking on timing for inside v. outside pitches in general. IMO, to hit the ball squarely, the ideal point of contact for an inside pitch v. an outside pitch is approx. 1.5-2 feet closer to the pitcher's point of release.

I don't follow this train of thought... but that's ok, too.

Perhaps in your scenario the batter has the inability to maintain an inside swing... which, to me is a trait of a good hitter... that is, her ability maintain 'box' when an inside pitch necessitates it. To me, hitting is not about the hands not being quick enough... it's more about building speed around the corner and then adjusting to the pitch. Sure, sweeping swings are going to knock that ball foul... but heck, why not just keep every pitch inside and under the hands on that type of swing? I'm alluding to an 'all things equal' scenario... cause this girl doesn't seem to have a problem jacking this one out of the ballpark:

The radius of a swing is variable, and good hitters adjust their swing accordingly so that they can throw the bat through inside and outside pitches.

That equates to approx. 5% (2 ft/40 ft) less time that a hitter has to hit an inside pitch than an outside pitch.

Now I'm lost... Bat distance traveled and ball distance traveled are two separate things. The time the ball takes to reach the target is a constant in this scenario (one pitch). The time it makes for bat to meet ball is a variable (when it started, radius of swing, etc). Coming form me... it may seem a surprise... but I don't know if analyzing time to swing is something that benefits a hitter. Teach them to build bat speed early... and adjust their 'throw' accordingly. My math applied to your math is like 0.02 seconds (the time less .05 multiplied by the time to the plate... say .40 for giggles) and I don't think you can train that kind of reactionary speed.

IMO, a good hitter will have made the decision to swing pre-pitch and will only abort the swing if they recognize that it is not the pitch type or in the area that constituted their predetermined go zone i.e., a good hitter does not wait to read the pitch to decide if they will swing, rather they decide to stop their swing after reading the pitch.

Sorta contrasting ideas, but I can agree to this.

So for an inside pitch, the final decision to continue the swing/abort the swing has to happen sooner than it does for an outside pitch; which means that a hitter has more time to adjust for an outside pitch.

Have you ever tried to choke back a swing once your hands have traveled away from your body... versus having the bat closer to your body? Can't agree with this... take a look at an outside HR swing versus the one above.

Both turn the rear corner efficiently and with speed... one gets jammed and shortens the radius, the other extends the radius to the pitch... BUT... both need to stop early... as that type of speed/momentum is not easy to control, especially the further the hands get away from the body.

To your point, the lower swing looks like it's hit a little 'later'... but I hope you don't think that both hitters couldn't have hit a HR to the opposite fields... as their bats are on plane to these pitches very early in the swing.

Here's an inside pitch hit for a Grand Salami to left center... because she got on plane early... and the timing of the swing put the ball further back into her body.

PS I obviously wasn't clear but was intending to note that I believe that the yarded change % is less than the % of any other specific pitch type, not all other pitches cummulatively (i.e, % yarded FBs OR % yarded screws OR.... rather than FB AND screws AND...), yet it seems to be a greater sin and used as justification to not throw it when it happens on change up. Except if the pitcher telegraphs every change, it should be shelved until further refined.

10-4!

As a side note to the OP - when a batter is all hand swing... or flattens their arms over the plate - I'm pitching them inside all day, every day.