Look Back Rule After Base on Balls

[MTR]

BTW I wish ASA would put their rule book online.

Why, so you can get something for nothing? Even if they put it on-line, and it is being discussed, it will be highly protected as "read only" (this has already been stated).

I'm sort of glad it is not because it isn't a document that can be parsed and then used. Too many people including umpires forget to turn the page and read everything, not just the one sentence or paragraph that can be interpreted or contorted to support one's belief and I can tell you from more than 4 decades of experience, that happens often.

 

[BretMan]

If USSSA considers rounding 1B to be the same as overrunning 1B then if you stop you need to return to 1B.

They do not...so that kind of shoots down the rest of your theory.

 

[KevinC]

Why, so you can get something for nothing?

I send money to ASA every year through registration fees for my DD to play and my ACE certification but I'd be happy to buy an ASA rulebook if they were for sale anywhere. The only way I know how to get an ASA rulebook is to bug my organization to ask for them from the local ASA. I'm just a coach who wants to know the rules but they sure make it hard to get a copy.

They do not...so that kind of shoots down the rest of your theory.

So in your opinion USSSA allows you to round 1B and stop before committing to 1B or 2B without getting called out by LBR? I brought this up because in ASA they specifically call this case out but USSSA does not.

 

[BretMan]

So in your opinion USSSA allows you to round 1B and stop before committing to 1B or 2B without getting called out by LBR?

Yes (well, it's not just my "opinion"- it's a standard interpretation of the Look Back Rule).

First, there is the actual rule you quoted:

Any runner(s) in motion may continue without stopping or may stop once, but then must immediately move directly back to the last base touched or attempt to advance to the next base.

As for "overrunning" being different than "rounding", if you read a little further (specifically, rule 8-10) it explains that a walk is treated exactly the same as a batted ball with respect to the batter-runner rounding first base, how the Look Back Rule applies in this situation and differentiates between "overrunning" versus "rounding".

What was it MTR was saying earlier, about someone focusing one section of the rule book, but failing to "turn the page"? Quite often, a rule is explained and defined in more than one section. Sometimes, you have to be able to look at the rule book as a whole, instead of picking out one section and thinking that's all there is to it. This is a good example.

And, yes, I will agree that ASA does do a much better job than does USSSA in trying to cover all possible scenarios and nuances to the rules.

 

[MTR]

I send money to ASA every year through registration fees for my DD to play and my ACE certification but I'd be happy to buy an ASA rulebook if they were for sale anywhere. The only way I know how to get an ASA rulebook is to bug my organization to ask for them from the local ASA. I'm just a coach who wants to know the rules but they sure make it hard to get a copy.

As a coach, especially ACE Certified, you shouldn't have a problem getting a rule book. And if there is an issue, I wouldn't hesitate to raise hell with your JO Commissioner copying everybody in the world, well, at least, OKC. Or even better, call the UIC.

So in your opinion USSSA allows you to round 1B and stop before committing to 1B or 2B without getting called out by LBR? I brought this up because in ASA they specifically call this case out

No, ASA does not call this an out even if a "high placed ASA umpire, whatever that is, says so.

 

[tcannizzo]

Something that was pointed out to me about the logic behind LBR a long time ago is not written anywhere, but seems to make sense.
It disputes the claim that it is a "speed up" rule and that it prevents "cat and mouse".

When is the only time LBR is in effect? When P is in the circle with control of the ball and not making a play. Another way of stating this is simply that P is ready to pitch.

Since all baserunners must be in contact with a base at the time of the pitch, when P is ready to pitch, we have to have a rule to get the baserunners to a base.

You can have "cat and mouse" all day long (so to speak), by any runner and any defender, including P. There is no "cat and mouse" rule.

So, LBR is related more to pitching rules than to baserunning; but yes, it is the runner's responsibility to comply.

 

[02Crush]

@ Comp...My mention of associations was in regards to umpire associations. I have yet to see an umpire call LBR consistently. And only one correctly. Sorry for being tired and the lack of detail. I have looked up ASA and USSSA on this and there do seem to be subtle difference to the LBR. Also, the examples I listed were word for word interpretations of the rule given to me by umpires during games where I asked afterwards about it. Also, as to a Base on Ball being a live ball can you point me in a direction of a organizational rule book that states that? The closest thing I have found to this is a definition of being hit with a pitch being a deadball and 1st base is awarded similar to that of a base on balls.

@ MTR I deleted my post since you needed a Tylenol to read it.

I do not know everything nor do I claim to. I suspect many other here do not either. Many of us are seeking understanding or clarification of things. Maybe even to compare occurrences to gain a better understanding of them. With that said it would have been nice to have someone reference a rule book and explain my incorrect statements to me rather than make cute jokes about headaches.

 

[Sweet Lou]

Also, thanks for the clarification as to a Base on Ball being a live ball. Can you point me in a direction of a organizational rule book that states that? I have read that upon the fourth ball being pitched the umpire halts play and awards the base.

Ball is absolutely live. You wouldn't be able to steal a base if it was dead ball on ball 4. Think about a passed ball that is ball 4 with a runner at 3rd. If it was a dead ball, runner at 3rd couldn't advance (unless forced by bases loaded). Not sure what actual rule number to point you to but unless you are playing is some really watered down rec league with some very restrictive rules (like 8U rec), ball is clearly live.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

Thomas, I think that is a slow pitch rule.

 

[Comp]

@ Comp...My mention of associations was in regards to umpire associations. I have yet to see an umpire call LBR consistently. And only one correctly. Sorry for being tired and the lack of detail. I have looked up ASA and USSSA on this and there do seem to be subtle difference to the LBR. Also, the examples I listed were word for word interpretations of the rule given to me by umpires during games where I asked afterwards about it. Also, as to a Base on Ball being a live ball can you point me in a direction of a organizational rule book that states that? The closest thing I have found to this is a definition of being hit with a pitch being a deadball and 1st base is awarded similar to that of a base on balls.

ASA 8-1-C The batter becomes a batter runner when 4 balls have been called by the umpire. The batter runner is awarded 1st base.
Effect: 1 (Fast Pitch and 16" slow pitch) The ball is live unless it has been blocked.

The only difference I know of in the look back rule between the 3 organizations I mentioned actually have to do with the pitcher and what is considered to put the look back rule into effect. In FED, the pitcher only has to have posession of the ball to make the LBR be in effect. In ASA the pitcher must have posession and control, ie: if pitcher has ball, but puts it under arm, between legs etc to mess with hair, hat, fiddle with glove etc, this is not considered to be in control and the LBR is not in effect. Again I would have to read the USSSA rules to see what it states.

You state only 1 umpire has called the rule correctly, yet you are not aware the ball remains live on ball 4. How could you know if the umpires are calling the rule correctly or not when you are not even aware of how the rule is applied?