LBR and over run first base

[kworth]

Reading the previous thread, I'm still confused about situations where the runner reaches first and then the pitcher gets the ball.

If the runner has not stopped yet then treat it the same as if the pitcher had the ball before the runner reached first?

If the runner has stopped and made a move toward second then its just a normal play, ie. one stop allowed?

If the runner has stopped and started back toward first before the pitcher gets the ball. Now my confusion starts. Runner stops before (or at the instant) pitcher catches the throw. This is the one legal stop? Is the runner now in jeopardy of being put out?

Runner stops after the pitcher catches the ball. Is this a legal stop? Is the runner in jeporady?

For the previous 4 questions does it matter which direction the runner turned?

Oh and devils advocate since the rule always seem to specify a turn, what if the runner stops but does not turn and moonwalks back toward first?

 

[Lickety Split]

My understanding is that no matter who, what, where, when or how, once the pitcher receives the ball in the circle the base runner must decide to advance forward or return back; regardless if she is between 1st and 2nd, 2nd and 3rd, or 3rd and home. The only exception is on a base on balls. After a base on balls, if the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle, the batter-runner is able to round 1st base, stop, take a look around and make a decision to advance or return. If the pitcher does not have control of the ball in the circle after the batter-runner reaches first base on a base on balls, then she is treated the same as all other runners until the pitcher receives the ball in the circle.

 

[smddad]

Read the rule. Pitcher with control of ball in the circle and batter/runner reaches 1st starts the LBR. At this point, the runner can stop once, then either continue or go back without stopping again. If they stop on a base, they stay there

 

[djcarter1966]

as far as I understand it the rule is not a difficult as you are trying to make it.

If the pitcher does not have the ball it is live and the runner can do anything they a legally allowed to do normally
If the pitcher has the ball and the runner is on the base they must stay on the base
If the pitcher has the ball and the runner is running in between bases they may stop once then immediately proceed to a base
If the pitcher has the ball and the runner is standing in between bases they must then immediately proceed to a base

 

[BretMan]

My understanding is that no matter who, what, where, when or how, once the pitcher receives the ball in the circle the base runner must decide to advance forward or return back; regardless if she is between 1st and 2nd, 2nd and 3rd, or 3rd and home. The only exception is on a base on balls...

A base on balls is treated exactly the same as any other play where the batter has become a batter-runner.

 

[BretMan]

Reading the previous thread, I'm still confused about situations where the runner reaches first and then the pitcher gets the ball.

If the runner has not stopped yet then treat it the same as if the pitcher had the ball before the runner reached first?

If the runner has stopped and made a move toward second then its just a normal play, ie. one stop allowed?

If the runner has stopped and started back toward first before the pitcher gets the ball. Now my confusion starts. Runner stops before (or at the instant) pitcher catches the throw. This is the one legal stop? Is the runner now in jeopardy of being put out?

Runner stops after the pitcher catches the ball. Is this a legal stop? Is the runner in jeporady?

For the previous 4 questions does it matter which direction the runner turned?

Oh and devils advocate since the rule always seem to specify a turn, what if the runner stops but does not turn and moonwalks back toward first?

When the batter-runner reaches first base, then the pitcher gets the ball in the circle, all of the requirements of the Look Back Rule kick in the moment that the pitcher gets the ball.

Prior to the pitcher getting the ball, the runner can stop, dance around, or change directions all they want, because the Look Back isn't in effect yet.

If the pitcher has the ball before the batter-runner reaches first base, it doesn't really matter. By rule, the Look Back can't go into effect until the batter-runner reaches first base.

There is a distinction on which way the runner turns (left or right) when the runner overruns first base (ie: goes straight up the first base foul line). But that only applies on overruns. When the runner rounds first base (ie: crosses first the heads in the direction of second base) none of that really applies.

To better clarify these answers, I'd need to know if you're talking about overrunning or rounding first base!

 

[kworth]

I have read the rule. I agree that it should be simple. Unfortunately the way the rule is written and the nebulous state that a runner is in after over running first complicate things. If it is so simple why does the rule have 3 sections and 6 (7?) subsections?

as far as I understand it the rule is not a difficult as you are trying to make it.

If the pitcher does not have the ball it is live and the runner can do anything they a legally allowed to do normally
If the pitcher has the ball and the runner is on the base they must stay on the base
If the pitcher has the ball and the runner is running in between bases they may stop once then immediately proceed to a base
If the pitcher has the ball and the runner is standing in between bases they must then immediately proceed to a base

But a runner having overrun first and returning to first is none (or maybe all) of these things. The runner is off the base but clearly not between bases as if she were between bases she could be put out. Since she can't be put out is she not virtually on the base? So then once the pitcher gets the ball any movement toward 2nd should be considered leaving the base and an out?

The rule is clear on a normal baserunning situation. The rule is clear on when the pitcher has the ball and then the runner reaches and overruns first. I'll even grant that it's logical enough to extend it to when a runner reaches first before the pitcher and stops their overrun after the pitcher has the ball.

It is not clear what happens if they are already returning from an overrun when the pitcher gets the ball.

I don't know why the rule isn't something like 'if the pitcher has the ball when a runner starts or is in the process of or returning from an overrun of first then the runner must return to first. Any attempt (movement) toward second is a violation.'. But it doesn't.

 

[kworth]

There iTo better clarify these answers, I'd need to know if you're talking about overrunning or rounding first base!

I'm asking about overrunning. Specifically about when a runner is already returning from an overrun when the pitches gets the ball.

My apologies, I see my first post was not clear on the situation.

 

[smddad]

I'm asking about overrunning. Specifically about when a runner is already returning from an overrun when the pitches gets the ball.

My apologies, I see my first post was not clear on the situation.

Over-running and then going to 2nd is only allowable in NCAA. It's called the Wilson rule for short, because Teresa Wilson successfully argued that it was allowed by the rules.

 

[kworth]

Runner stops after the pitcher catches the ball. Is this a legal stop? Is the runner in jeporady?

OK, so this is not a legal stop. Finally found it in the Points of Emphasis. I find it very strange this not in the rules. The rules seem to allow it and I can see why Wilson was successful.

If the runner has stopped and started back toward first before the pitcher gets the ball. Now my confusion starts. Runner stops before (or at the instant) pitcher catches the throw. This is the one legal stop? Is the runner now in jeopardy of being put out?

Now what about this...
It seems to be a legal stop because it happened before the LBR comes into affect. So the runner gets to then make her immediate choice of direction. The runner has not made a move towards 2nd so is not liable to be tagged out. But she has not returned directly to 1st so should not be safe from being tagged out. So can she be tagged out or not?

Just to clarify, both situations are overrun and runner returning to first.