There has been lots of discussion on "staying open" when windmill pitching but if you look at other athletic movements, for example, pitching overhand, hitting a softball, swinging a driver (golf), the "closing of the hips" is important in all of these movements to generate speed and velocity. So why shouldn't it be incorporated in the windmill pitch mechanics?
Is "closing the hips" a bad thing?
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- Dec 7, 2011
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I am going to prognosticate and say that in 5 years we will look back and laugh at what we thought is "required"
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Try to get your arm through the bottom of circle with the hip in the way. It sends the hand out away from the body. The other thing is the excessive stress to the shoulder.
It is certainly OK, to pitch and then, close. What I avoid teaching is slamming the hips closed as you pitch.
I have spoken to at least a dozen college coaches D 1,2&3 and one Olympic softball coach on this very subject. It is not so much the closing but the when you close that matters they seem to indicate. Different pitchers close to various degrees and they even close different amounts on different pitches. The majority close some AFTER release few close before. Two of the best lines i have heard on closing one was from Auburn's Coach (paraphrased) "Teaching to close early works till a your girl turns in to a woman and gets hips, then she has to relearn her arm swing while college coaches and her boyfriend are watching." the other was Houston's Coach "men teach closed hips to get the ball past their belly women teach open to get the ball past there hips". There is a study of Olympic pitchers in 1996 that addresses hip closure. Softball Pitching at the 1996 Olympic Games
last thought men have been pitching over hand for over 100 years. If it think i have a better way to pitch how long would it take to know if it worked 15 years.... 20 years? You have to teach the child 7yr they become a adult and then wait to see if the arm falls off. So in a relative since women have not been pitching that long, or that many trial and error cycles.
last thought men have been pitching over hand for over 100 years. If it think i have a better way to pitch how long would it take to know if it worked 15 years.... 20 years? You have to teach the child 7yr they become a adult and then wait to see if the arm falls off. So in a relative since women have not been pitching that long, or that many trial and error cycles.
To be specific, I am speaking of leading with the hips, closing before the arm reaches the release point!
Because the follow-through determines the rotation. The follow-through in golf and hitting are similar. Throwing over-hand, the release is initiated in the closed position or you couldn't generate any energy. Even if you threw a football underhanded, you couldn't do it in a closed position, so the only issue is to close or not to close. In the early 90s I felt I was in the minority about this. I debated it until blue!
Neutral:
1) at no point in the windmill circle through release does it require a rotation of the core or upper body to execute the pitch.
Positives:
1) so the question has to be asked if there is an advantage. Well in all honesty, I think earlier fielding position is achieved.
Negatives:
1) the arm circle has to change physiologically to the core to complete the transition. That disconnect in theory reduces the accuracy and integrity of the circle.
2) the arm circle has to circumvent the hip which is rotated into a pristine arm circle. The need to go around the hip causes release and accuracy issues.
3) it by its nature eliminates arm whip, when the hip leads.
4) the increased tension of compression on the back of the rotator cuff, and increased strain on the front of the shoulder joint result in increased injuries.
Lori Harrigan is a good example of this. She may be a little before some people's time, but she pitched at UNLV and had a tendency to beat our team
She was a lefty and oft and on member of the US team. She had 3 shoulder surgeries, and slammed the door as much as any pitcher on the national level at the time. Interestingly Lori was reputed to "own the outside corner". I didn't need an explanation for this. The argument is that it increases speed. Those that offer this do not have scientific examples as in the same girl throwing both ways, before and after, or any other scenario. Most of the great pitchers have a hip angle to the plate, but their hip is out of the way, and their arm circle is not compromised. If the shoulder moves forward as the hips close before release at say 1.5mph faster than it would if it stayed open, how much will that movement add to pitch speed? What if arm whip is eliminated? I have never seen a single advantage, but many disadvantages. When people say a pitcher can't throw a pitch for a strike 80% of the time, perhaps it is their mind that is in a box!
Screwball mentioned the curve. The curve is not a clean arm circle, and in fact connects to the rotation of the hips and core wrapping around the waist. So the hips play no negative role, and in fact that body rotation enhances the pitch.
1943. However the first ISF World Championship for women was held in 1965 in Australia. Fastpitch started in the Netherlands in 1943 and Australia in 1939.
dadof3girls, that was an excellent find!
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Interesting thread. Watch this video and see what you think of her style. Supposedly throwing mid 60's and a verbal commit to Mizzou as a Sophomore. Looks like she strides to left to clear her hips but her head and throwing shoulder stay more over the power line.
Tori Finucane -'13 (Good Counsel HS; MD) *UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI*
Tori Finucane -'13 (Good Counsel HS; MD) *UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI*
The only one of these you mentioned that is underhand is the golf swing. Check out the hips and shoulders at contact and quite a few frames afterwards.
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There are no options in the golf follow through, or the baseball pitching follow-through. How can that lead shoulder follow-through without closing. Now I am not a proponent of "no closing", just leading with the hip. And what would happen if Tiger Woods led with his front hip, pulling it out? I simply teach the "4" position after fastball or rise-ball release, then closing.
Yep, she throws like Lori Harrigan. She is a nice kid, nice pitcher, but I don't like it! My first year at the University we have 4 pitchers, 2 holdovers, and 2 freshman. All of them were injured but one! And that girl couldn't hit the broad side of the barn. And her dad was her pitching coach. I mentioned her in another thread once, about her first full length pitching session in early September. She threw 63 straight balls. I remember Pam's face as we worked with her. It was a look of horror! She had no mechanical foundation. We had a student of John Gay, and she never threw an inning in her first two years of college. So I am not too big on taking chances with mechanics. If I am going to give them the big contract, I want to see them stay on the field.
I don't think Tori will stay on the field for 4 years. I also bet Tori will be changing her mechanics next year.
Her pitches were, R, C, R, R, R, R, R? (incomplete video frame), F?, R, R
Screwball can you honestly point out one stride, release and follow-through, that resembles a screwball in this video? Her follow-through on the rise resembles Escobedo a little, coming in toward her center a little, weight leaning back. No where does she take a screwball stride, or her arm swing in displacing the hip, or her hand shoot inside toward the batter. NONE!
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