Illegal Sub v. Batting Out of Order

[VA Chris]

Lets stick with ASA & USSSA rules for this question.

If I understand this correctly, an illegal sub is any player that enters the game with out the right to an offensive or defensive position. Penalty if on offense any efforts from the illegal player are nullified, if on defense opposing team has option of play stand or reset to prior to pitch creating play.

What I am trying to discern is the difference between an illegal sub and batting out of order. Batting out of order results are batter that should have been up is out, any advances resultant from efforts are null, and out of order batter is returned to bench.

Looking at this for a simple solution it seems that the only difference would be the batting out of order is two legal players goofing up the rostered order. Where as an illegal player was simply not on the roster and should not have been in game. I get that the results are similar, just looking for a clear understanding.

Example: Illegal sub comes to bat for home team (substitution of player was not announced to HU or opposing team). Illegal sub is hit by pitch and awarded first base. This in case moves 1B Runner and 2B Runner over to 2nd & 3rd respectively. At this point away team argues home team batted out of order (right call?) Result is illegal sub is on 1B due to HBP. HU calls batter that should have been up out, illegal player is removed from 1B, and runners returned to previous bases.

This is where the complication seems to creep in, if illegal player rule is followed batter HBP is out, if batting out of order is called batter that should have been up is out and illegal player HBP batter is null.

Further info to help:
Illegal player was listed as a sub on roster card turned into HU and opposing team prior to inning 1.
Away team argued batting out of order as penalty
Does HBP change any of this?

Wrapping it all up, what should have been called?

 

[Comp]

What you are describing is not an illegal sub, it was an unreported sub. An illegal sub is a player who does not have the right to be in the game, ie a player who has used up their reentry or a player who has been in the game but has reentered in another position in the batting order (which no umpire should ever accept if reported) or the flex batting for anyone other than the DP. Also, while it is bush by coaches that do it, rules do not actually require all available subs to be listed on the lineup at the start of the game. Any legal rostered player may be added to the lineup at any point during the game.

For USSSA as long as the player is a legal player the first offense for not reporting the substitute is a warning to the coach, the second offense is the coach is ejected.

ASA, when discovered at bat, no penalty just enter the sub. If completing at bat and discovered before a pitch is thrown, the unreported sub is out, any advance of runners by the unreported sub advancing is negated and the player is entered as the sub. If found on defense the player is entered as a sub, if they make a play and it is protested prior to a pitch the offended coach has the option of the result of the play or bringing the batter back to bat with the previous count and the player is entered as a sub.

In the play you have described, the appeal should not have been for batting out of order it should have been for an unreported sub. Under USSA rules there is no penalty other than a warning to the coach. Under ASA the player would have been called out and entered as a sub on the lineup and any advancement of runners would have been negated.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Speaking ASA... If it were an illegal sub, the player is disqualified and has to be replaced by a legal sub. I don't see any additional effect (e.g. player called out and/or runners having to return) - did I miss it?

 

[Comp]

Asa 4-6-c 1-9

 

[SoCal_Dad]

Asa 4-6-c 1-9

That's for unreported sub. Yes, that would also apply if the sub was unreported and illegal.

What I meant was - if a reported sub is illegal, is there any effect besides disqualification?

 

[Comp]

A reported illegal substitution should never happen, any umpire keeping track of a lineup card should know not to accept it.

 

[VA Chris]

Thanks gentlemen. I thought it was pretty simple to differentiate but wanted to be sure.

Answers like this are what makes this site awesome.