How is pitcher "effectiveness" best measured?

[Scorekeeper]

Scorekeeper - one more.

The ability to hit your spots on command. Very important key indicator of an effective pitcher but very difficult to measure with standard scorekeeping metrics.

Remember I’m a baseball guy and don’t see much SB.

There aren’t any BB pitchers who can hit what I consider a “spot” with all their pitches more than 70% at best during a game. Being the SB pitchers are a lot closer and don’t have things affecting a BB pitcher like having to pitch from the stretch, perhaps they’re a lot more accurate.

While strike percentage only indicates how accurate a pitcher is, a good HS BB starting pitcher over a season will be lucky to get over 65%. What do SB pitcher get to?

 

[Scorekeeper]

I'll assume that ML means Major League as in MLB. With that said, I will say two things. One - comparing professional baseball to league and travel softball is crazy at best. Two - generally scorekeepers and numbers people (which I am) want to describe certain specific aspects of the game solely with numbers and I really don't think it's possible.

I wasn’t comparing anything in ML baseball to any other lever or game. I was simply saying that there are some pretty high level minds running those numbers, but they don’t differentiate between really good players or teams and very bad ones. The numbers are ALL required to be put into the main database, then data miners can pull out anything they want using any criteria they want to use. The result is, when you see a list of the top 10 BA’s, the at bats considered aren’t segregated. AB against the league’s worst pitchers are right in there with those against the best.

I am a scorekeeper and love to run the numbers, but I don’t consider myself a “numbers person” even though I do believe every aspect of the game could be described solely with numbers.

The best you can do is to look at the whole of the numbers, ensure all things are otherwise equal, and draw some general conclusions.

Who said to do anything different?

 

[Scorekeeper]

I'd simply measure the oppositions on base %.... that's the simplest way I can think of.

When I 1st read that, I thought WOW! I wonder why I don’t do that. Then I remembered why. How in the world would anyone be able to get every opponent’s OBP? Maybe in the future that will be possible, but right now I don’t see it as a viable solution.

 

[FP26]

When I 1st read that, I thought WOW! I wonder why I don’t do that. Then I remembered why. How in the world would anyone be able to get every opponent’s OBP? Maybe in the future that will be possible, but right now I don’t see it as a viable solution.

I believe he is referring to opponent OBP vs. your pitcher(s). In my opinion, it is not much different than WHIP.

 

[coach james]

When I 1st read that, I thought WOW! I wonder why I don’t do that. Then I remembered why. How in the world would anyone be able to get every opponent’s OBP? Maybe in the future that will be possible, but right now I don’t see it as a viable solution.

I believe he is referring to opponent OBP vs. your pitcher(s). In my opinion, it is not much different than WHIP.

Correct. Basic math of batters faced vs. batters reaching base....

 

[cuzmail]

I wasn’t comparing anything in ML baseball to any other lever or game. I was simply saying that there are some pretty high level minds running those numbers, but they don’t differentiate between really good players or teams and very bad ones.

You obviously missed my point.

Still assuming you are comparing this to MLB (since you again reference what appears to be MLB teams), it is a bit of a stretch to compare MLB professional teams (good or bad) to travel and league softball. Don't see how you could justify that in any way regardless of what type of minds are running the numbers. Your samples aren't the same. pros v beginners, kids, v adults, ..etc.

 

[cuzmail]

When I 1st read that, I thought WOW! I wonder why I don’t do that. Then I remembered why. How in the world would anyone be able to get every opponent’s OBP? Maybe in the future that will be possible, but right now I don’t see it as a viable solution.

Don't current scoring programs such as GameChanger, IScore, and others track that along with other stats for individual pitchers? I'll check GC later. I know it gives lots of pitcher based stats, but I can't remember if opponent OBP is one of them. If not, it should be.

 

[SoAZDad]

Consider a game ending at 1 - 0. The losing pitcher(s) allowed one run, and the winning pitcher(s) none (okay, I'm playing Captain Obvious). Assuming the batting orders of both teams did not suck, can we conclude winning pitcher(s) were more effective in this game on this day than the losing pitcher(s)?

Can we also conclude the best measure of pitcher effectiveness is the least number of runs allowed, regardless whether they are earned or unearned?

 

[Scorekeeper]

Correct. Basic math of batters faced vs. batters reaching base....

Mebbe I’m dense, but I don’t see how getting an opponent’s OBP for 1 game is a way to judge that team’s competitive “quality”. I’m a firm believer that small samples don’t necessarily make the numbers useless, but they do restrict how valuable they are. If a team plays 25 games, you should use the results of all 25 games, not just 1.

 

[FP26]

Mebbe I’m dense, but I don’t see how getting an opponent’s OBP for 1 game is a way to judge that team’s competitive “quality”. I’m a firm believer that small samples don’t necessarily make the numbers useless, but they do restrict how valuable they are. If a team plays 25 games, you should use the results of all 25 games, not just 1.

Thats the point. Opponents OBP will measure every opponent the pitcher faces. If she pitches 100 innings, gives up 75 hits and 25 walks , but registers 300 outs, the opponents OBP is .250.