Homeschooled 13 yr old needs help (videos)

[Renntiger]

I wish I had discovered this board earlier, as I have learned a lot (notably the internal rotation discussion) during the past couple of weeks by reading through many recent threads.

I have a small 13 yr old (5'1") who started pitching in 10 U, using nothing more than Cheri Kempf's book and video for guidance (having studied human anatomy in school myself, Kempf's explanations made more sense to me biomechanically than what I was hearing from some of our local pitching coaches, so I made the decision to become a bucket-dad and channel Kempf myself. Since then, I've added Barry Sammons' book and Marc Dagenais' pitching bundle to our reference collection). She has had reasonable success this summer playing 14 C, leading her team to a good showing at the state games. However, her progress has become stagnant, and my ability to help her improve has definitely reached a hard limit. Our rather uneven fall ball experience proves that a 50 mph fastball and an upper 30's change-up can only get you so far against A and B batters. I would like to find some new ways to help her develop further (and correct some bad habits) during the off season, so that she will continue to have fun next season. We are not really after anything else.

As several posters have received very helpful feedback from the experts here using their videos, I figured I'd give it a try as well. Here are a few shots of her during a pre-game warm-up. These are 300 fps sequences shot with a Casio EX-F1, which has been a godsend for DIY motion analysis.

<object width="400" height="300"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=7511307&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=7511307&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="300"></embed></object><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/7511307">Front</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user516005">Gene</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
<object width="400" height="300"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=7511203&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=7511203&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="300"></embed></object><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/7511203">Side</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user516005">Gene</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
<object width="400" height="300"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=7511158&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=7511158&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="300"></embed></object><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/7511158">Back</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user516005">Gene</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

... and some frame captures per the pinned video-posting instructions:

Clearly, her internal rotation is nowhere near where it needs to be (we are working on it); perhaps due to insufficient thumb pressure, her hand tends to slip medially behind the ball at release if she fully pronates her forearm during the snap, giving her ball the dreaded football spin. In these videos, she was doing her 'normal' release, because she didn't have enough confidence in her 'new' motion to use it in a game. Until I read the internal rotation thread here, I had been actively encouraging her to make her release more 'bowling'-like, no doubt contributing to her slow progress.

Purely by chance, we ran into Ken Gardner at a Burger joint this weekend during a tournament. As my daughter was in uniform, he picked up a conversation with us and introduced himself as Monica Abbott's one time pitching coach (and counts Keilani Ricketts among his recent students). He then proceeded to give my daughter some quick tips, such as closing her hip behind the pitch to maintain her forward momentum after release. I wonder if this was a sign from the softball gods that it's time for me to entrust the coaching task to the pros...

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated, both in terms of my daughter's pitching mechanics and whether or not I should give Ken a call.

Thanks!
GT

 

[sluggers]

Internal rotation (IR) is important, but it is only one part of the motion. IR is a big deal on this forum because it is a relatively new concept--but it is just one component of the entire motion. Her entire motion needs to be optimized, not just her release. Good IR without more will get you a 50 MPH fastball, but not much else.

First, her right shoulder is parallel with the ground at release. The right shoulder should be down and the left shoulder should be up. Compare her shoulder position to the shoulder positions of Abbott and Osterman. (Note that Abbott and Osterman are lefties, so their left shoulders are lower than their right shoulders.)

Second, her glove position is wrong. Her glove arm is at a 90 degree angle with her body. The glove should come down and touch the front or her left leg.

Third, the stuff about "closing closing her hip to get behind the pitch" should be forgotten for now. Look at the position of the upper body of Abbott and Osterman. Now look at your DD. Your DD is fully closed, and she still has the ball in her hand. Both Abbott and Osterman are still slightly open, and the ball is out of their hands. Your DD needs to be staying open.

Finally, there is some inconsistency in her pitches. She needs more practice so that every pitch looks like every other pitch.

Our rather uneven fall ball experience proves that a 50 mph fastball and an upper 30's change-up can only get you so far against A and B batters

Can I quote you on that?

 

[sjsss]

The glove hand can help the left shoulder stay in by keeping the left thumb pointed to the ground. Homeschooled? There is hope, my daughter was homeschooled and ended up with $100,000 worth of scholarship money and a nice D1 career. Yes, get her a pitching coach asap. Best of luck.

Steve

 

[Renntiger]

Thanks for the fast replies and helpful comments, guys! Yes, the premature closing of the body is something that we have been struggling with this season (it's actually much worse than this during tough games); it's a problem that she gradually developed over the years as she tried to pitch harder. Unfortunately, by the time the problem became obvious to me (i.e., when I bought the EX-F1 and saw her motion in slow-mo), it was already part of her muscle memory. She knows how to do a 'proper' release, with the correct shoulder position and glove-hand motion, and can do so continuously during practice if I force her to, but if there is a runner on third and no outs, you can be sure that she will fall back to what she feels most comfortable doing... As breaking bad habits is harder than forming good ones from scratch, I know we have our work cut out for us.

Thanks again!
GT

PS, just so that there is no misunderstanding, the 'homeschooling' bit refers to her pitching instructions only. I may have been shortchanging her in this respect, as it would appear.

 

[calgofo]

The glove hand can help the left shoulder stay in by keeping the left thumb pointed to the ground. Homeschooled? There is hope, my daughter was homeschooled and ended up with $100,000 worth of scholarship money and a nice D1 career. Yes, get her a pitching coach asap. Best of luck.

Steve

My DD and Mark H's were homeschooled and played college ball as well.

 

[Amy in AZ.]

What state are you in? Maybe we can recommend a coach.

I would have her do a lot of power Ks, in an effort to get a better relationship between her release and her stride. (timing)

Also, I would have her face a fence, as close as possible, and do a set of Ks from there. That will help her keep open.

Is she doing long toss, to get stronger?

Also, are you working on her overhand throw? It needs to be strong for her pitching to be strong.

I measure my students with a Gloveradar. It is about $80.00 and the kids celebrate each milestone. (30mph, 40mph, etc.)

One good hint I took away from the last Candrea camp was to hang a softball from the porch or garage, that you have drilled and put a "surgical tube" through. (I bought mine already made.) Leave it there and she can exercise with it several times each day, just as she walks past it.

I also like the Finch Windmill, so that pitchers can strengthen both sides.

Good luck. She looks great, so far.

 

[Renntiger]

Thanks for the tips, Amy!

We are in the SF Bay area. The aforementioned Ken Gardner is in Salinas (Abbott's hometown), about an hour away. Keilani Ricketts is the latest and biggest highschool phenom to surface in our region. The fact that Ken had both Abbott and Ricketts as former students is what made me stop and wonder if this chance encounter should lead to something else. I am under no illusion that my 5'1" DD (who will probably max out at 5'3") will ever challenge the success of those 6'3" wonders of nature (although my DD would vigorously disagree with this assessment). We both love this game, for the beauty of it and its character-building qualities, and want to get the most out of it for its own sake; which is why homeschooling has been a rewarding experience for me personally up to this point, and I had resisted giving it up as long as I felt she was making good progress.

We started doing the fence drill last year after I first realized that she was closing early, but probably not as often as I should. Relapse has been a constant issue. We also did a lot of long tosses in the summer, when the days were long and there was no homework, and we could afford to spend hours on the field by ourselves (we have the good fortune of living next to a community baseball park/soccer facility). We spend a good 30 - 45 minutes doing overhand throws and fielding drills at the beginning of each practice session, after completing the dynamic warm-up that she learned at softball camps.

I do have a cheap Bushnell Velocity radar, which I still use on occasion (e.g., to measure the spread between her fastball and change). As she has not progressed much velocity-wise this year, measuring her top speed has become a source of stress and disappointment rather than excitement, so I don't use it for that anymore.

We have not done any strength-specific training beyond the core workout we learned from Marc Dagenais's e-book. However, she has been challenging and out arm-wrestling nearly all the boys (who are game) in 7th and 8th grade, including the baseball kids I've been on the lookout for a Finch Windmill on eBay for a while now, but always lost out when I bid on the few that show up. I do believe she needs a lot of strength training on her left side, as she is indeed beginning to look like a fiddler crab. I will shop for some surgical tubing and let her try out the tetherball exercise.

Many thanks!
GT

 

[newsunpub]

Well, yes you should

I wonder if this was a sign from the softball gods that it's time for me to entrust the coaching task to the pros...

GT,

I know this is a belated reply, and I don't mean to be short with you, but you met one of the best fastpitch pitching coaches in the world, he gave you exact advice, and you're wondering whether you should call him? You seem to be "home schooling" yourself. So I don't know if you can hear this answer: go to Ken, sit on the bucket as you catch for your daughter and "listen." Try to understand what he teaches as he attempts to make your daughter one of the best, and don't get in the middle. It's between him and your daughter. She'll excel. If you want to continue training your daughter, take some pitching lessons from Ken yourself. Then when you understand how to throw a 68 mph fastball, you can teach it to her. Sorry if this advice seems a bit abrasive, it's meant in good faith.

Best,
Newsunpub

 

[Renntiger]

I appreciate the input, Newsunpub. How did you dig up this old thread? Do you know Ken personally?

Yes, I did take my dd to Ken for a lesson after posting here. He is obviously a very experienced coach. My dd and I both liked him and picked up quite a few good tips from him. For one thing, he noticed that my dd lacked flexibility in the shoulder, and made a point of telling me to stretch her arms every night, until she can clutch her hands behind her back and make the two elbows touch each other. In the six months since then, I've really come to appreciate the significance of this advice as I studied the motion of some of the more successful pitchers and compared theirs to my dd's. It's quite clear to me now that the relative rigidity of my dd's shoulder joint significantly impeded her ability to generate proper (IR-type) arm whip.

We'd also had the pleasure of spending a few hours with Hillhouse when he was out here some months ago. Bill's pitching mechanics are quite different from the ones advocated by Ken in several significant areas. For my dd and me, transitioning from Cheri Kempf's teachings to Bill's method just felt more natural and incremental than going with Ken's approach, which required a much more radical retooling of her entire motion. In the end, we both felt that spending a couple of hours with Bill whenever he is in town would be the best way to go, with "home schooling" in between.

With numerous videos and Internet forums at our disposal, "home schooling" today doesn't have to mean going at it blind or re-inventing the wheel every time.

I have never broken 50 with my own pitches. My shoulder has no give at all, and I see hardly any wrist snap when I look at my own motion in slow-mo, so my hardest throws were mere variations of change-ups. It's safe to say that I'll never pitch 68 no matter how many lessons I take (but I do in fact know how others do it). Indeed, I am unable to demonstrate 1/4 of what I have already "taught" my dd to do.

Yet, like many of the bucket-dads who post here (and many more who are content to simply lurk), I am perfectly capable of reading, analyzing, digesting, absorbing, and regurgitating what experts have written and shown that make sense to me, and to give my dd instant feedback based on what I can see in her motion. Could I do a better job than Ken or Bill? Of course not. Am I hurting my dd's development? Not unless I ignored the cumulative wisdom of those who came before me and attempted to re-invent pitching from scratch.

Pitching certainly has a scientific component to it (fortunately not very complicated, once you understood the fundamentals), but it is also an art form. Most of us are not born with enough natural talent to be successful artists ourselves, but nearly all of us can recognize a good work of art when we see or hear one. In this sense, pitching coaches are a little like art critics. Being a great artist certainly gives one a lot more insight into the finer aspects of the art form itself, and a huge advantage when it comes to getting one's points across through live demonstrations, but it's not a requirement for one to be able to tell the good from the bad, or even the mediocre from the truly atrocious (if one lacked the ability to demonstrate how to produce good art, carefully studying video recordings of a good artist at work can be an adequate substitute). As a "home school" coach, I see myself as operating at these more basic levels. For everyday practice, I find this to be generally sufficient.

Lastly, I think time availability is an important factor to consider. Keeping track of the study materials out there and putting them to work require significant time investment, which not everyone can afford. Fortunately, my circumstances have allowed me to indulge in (and thoroughly enjoy) these activities so far. I would abandon home-schooling without hesitation if I can’t put in the time necessary to adequately inform myself.

Best,
Gene

 

[SoftSocDad]

Gene,

You're a remarkable writer.

Advise your daughter to quit the armwrestling. She may run into a testosterone-driven boy with a chip on his shoulder and with something to prove and end up with a broken arm or damaged ligaments.

Keep up the great work.