Any Proof regarding DROP BALL?

[starsnuffer]

Remember that the NFCA camps are generally held for kids who want to pay to get in front of some college coaches and get some of their info out there. Remember also, that many, many, many pitchers cannot throw an effective breaking pitch. For most of these kids, they (and their daddies) think that a fastball low in the zone is a drop ball, a fast ball outside is a curve ball, and a fast ball inside is a screwball. Guess what they think a high fastball is?

As a general rule of thumb, the more rotations per second, the more the pitch will break. The seam orientation also has a lot to do with how much the pitch breaks. That said, a successful breaking pitch is judged less on how MUCH it breaks, but WHEN it breaks. Data is data, results are what count. This is why so many college coaches make multiple trips to see their prospective pitching recruits play travel tournaments, and try to get them to go to their camps, wheras batting numbers and run speed times speak for themselves.

-W

 

[Steve Huff]

Remember that the NFCA camps are generally held for kids who want to pay to get in front of some college coaches and get some of their info out there. Remember also, that many, many, many pitchers cannot throw an effective breaking pitch. For most of these kids, they (and their daddies) think that a fastball low in the zone is a drop ball, a fast ball outside is a curve ball, and a fast ball inside is a screwball. Guess what they think a high fastball is?

As a general rule of thumb, the more rotations per second, the more the pitch will break. The seam orientation also has a lot to do with how much the pitch breaks. That said, a successful breaking pitch is judged less on how MUCH it breaks, but WHEN it breaks. Data is data, results are what count. This is why so many college coaches make multiple trips to see their prospective pitching recruits play travel tournaments, and try to get them to go to their camps, wheras batting numbers and run speed times speak for themselves.

-W

Amen here starsnuffer. I had a dad from southern Idaho ask me to take a look at his daughter who had 7 pitches, all the same spins, all corkscrewing, with "amazing movement". She did throw 61. She did get a scholarship to play at Southern Utah, as a SS and never pitched one inning despite a good arm. In fact, I at 5 pitchers at the university that all threw only 58. Most weren't worth a scholarship. She couldn't pitch for me, yet she could not pitch at an even lower level. Her dad would not let anyone talk to his daughter because he was such a fantastic pitching coach.

 

[Steve Huff]

So what are the ideal characteristics of a drop ball?

Is there an ideal rpm for each mph?

Looking at the NFCA data the drops are thrown as fast as a FB. Looking at the rev fire data most are not putting enough revs on the ball. Are they overpowering the drop and not getting much movement?

T Red, read starsnuffer's post. I think he pretty well sums it up. Their mechanics are not right! There is no other explanation. And if the pitches are the same speed, and the revolutions are less on the drop, the pitch is flat! In fact, if they both had a 12-6 spin, the drop would drop less than a fastball if thrown at the same speed. Their "peel" in the drop may be poorly timed or executed. On the roll-over they might have a tight shoulder, or have poor timing on the snap, or generally poor mechanics. But if the drops are the same speed, that would imply the pitchers were mostly throwing a peel drop. A roll-over to get proper mechanics into the pitch almost HAS to be thrown a little slower. Some of that wrist snap inertia is going into the roll-over motion and not getting behind the pitch like a fastball.

 

[sluggers]

View attachment 1798As starsnuffer said, the kids pitching for RevFire generally don't know how to throw breaking stuff. Of course, their *Daddies* think tey can...

The kids throwing the real breaking stuff based on the RevFire data are in the top 10% to 15%. Everyone else is chucking up fastballs.

A roll-over to get proper mechanics into the pitch almost HAS to be thrown a little slower.

Steve, you are just plain wrong. A kid can throw a rollover as fast as a fastball. Attached is a scatter graph from the 2011 CWS of Chelsea Thomas. The left axis (the -Y- axis) is the vertical movement of her pitches. The -X- axis shows the speed. If there is zero break, then it is a fastball. If it is -10 or more on the Y axis, it is a drop ball. The units of the Y axis are inches.

You can see three clusters. One cluster of pitches around 0 vertical break and around MPH are fastballs. A second cluster is around -15/47MPH, which is her off-speed drop. A third cluster is around -15 with a speed around 70 MPH. It is pretty clear that she is throwing her drop balls *faster* than her fastballs.

(Break is defined as the variance between the ball's final position and the ball's estimated position--the estimated position is calculated based on the release angle of the ball and the speed.)

 

[Steve Huff]

Steve, you are just plain wrong. A kid can throw a rollover as fast as a fastball. Attached is a scatter graph from the 2011 CWS of Chelsea Thomas. The left axis (the -Y- axis) is the vertical movement of her pitches. The -X- axis shows the speed. If there is zero break, then it is a fastball. If it is -10 or more on the Y axis, it is a drop ball. The units of the Y axis are inches.

Do you know for certain she throws a roll-over drop? Do you have any video I can watch?

I saw Chelsea at the World Cup in Oklahoma City this past summer and I do not recall seeing her throw a roll-over drop. I don't know what the graphic shows as to a specific drop. I just never saw her throw one. This isn't an opinion I will just accept, it is going to have to be proven to me that it was a roll-over, because these drop balls would have to involve very powerful release mechanics, almost violent to throw the pitch that hard. And from a physics standpoint, I am just not buying it. I did not sit at field level, but I can say that she had constant fast-ball releases, perhaps including peel drops.

 

[tomzpc]

The fastball, logically has the highest rev as she gets under the ball
with release at 6-12, more strength and a natural snap creates more spin,
speed accuracy. The drop/dropcurve induces ground ball outs, we rely heavily on this
pitch for hard hitting teams. Nothing like a ground ball out to 1B/2B

But typically a fastball does not have a 12-6 spin as does a peel drop because wth the latter the hand is getting behind the ball at release. The good fastballs that I see have more of a 1-7 spin.

 

[CoachKirk]

In regards to Chelsea Thomas (Mizzou Pitcher)... I've posted this a few times on this board. She only throws a drop, rise and change up. Her drop is a PEEL drop. Her 'fastball' is a PEEL drop. It's the same pitch. How do I know this? Doug Gillis is the pitching 'consultant' at Mizzou. My DD takes lessons from Doug when he's in Columbia. He only teaches the PEEL drop - not the roll over drop. The catchers on my 16U travel team train with Megan Christopher who was the Mizzou catcher for the past 4 years. She will tell you the same thing. Since Megan has caught Chelsea more than anyone else over the past 3 years she knows better than anyone.

 

[Steve Huff]

In regards to Chelsea Thomas (Mizzou Pitcher)... I've posted this a few times on this board. She only throws a drop, rise and change up. Her drop is a PEEL drop. Her 'fastball' is a PEEL drop. It's the same pitch. How do I know this? Doug Gillis is the pitching 'consultant' at Mizzou. My DD takes lessons from Doug when he's in Columbia. He only teaches the PEEL drop - not the roll over drop. The catchers on my 16U travel team train with Megan Christopher who was the Mizzou catcher for the past 4 years. She will tell you the same thing. Since Megan has caught Chelsea more than anyone else over the past 3 years she knows better than anyone.

Thanks coachkirk, this is consistent with what I saw in Oklahoma City.

To throw a roll-over drop faster than any other pitch makes no sense. For a peel, it does. The peel is her fastball, so she throws it as hard as possible. I saw her throw more fastballs than riseballs. Her peel was her foundational pitch there, so it makes sense to throw it hard.

But a roll-over doesn't make sense to throw hard. The movement is the benefit. And I would have to assume other coaches and pitchers are not as smart as me, which is crazy, to throw the roll-over harder not only from a mixing of speed perspective, movement perspective, but also a physics perspective. When you throw a roll-over 3-4 mph slower than a fastball, riseball, curve, screwball, whatever, you are using the batters physical limitations against them. When any batter swings, soon after the bat head gets in front of the front foot, the bat head starts to climb in that arc back up the the front shoulder. So the bat head is going up as the ball is going down. To throw it as hard would be giving up that advantage. You have three keys to the chess game, pitcher vs batter. Up/down, in/out, and fast/slow or change of speed. You should take advantage of all of them.

 

[Mike]

The peel may not always move enough.

Making me evaluate this whole topic........

Based on one bad outing from a pitcher with nothing working?

You said she has 5 pitches, and a fastball you didnt mention would make it 6. How many does a person need?
Thats a small sample size for re-evaluation.

 

[tojo]

I watched the Missouri/Baylor game yesterday and the pitcher from Mizzou had a peel that dropped off the table. Also, Danielle Lawrie had a peel that did pretty well,too. That being said, I prefer the roll-over.