Absolute vs Nice to Have?
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- Jul 14, 2008
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As I stated earlier in my post about the pivot foot. I could post hundreds of clips like these........From the best in the world........Turning the foot.......To open the knee......To prepare for and support opening the hips...........
Sprinters don't pitch. They RUN..........
The poor information out there is endless people.........Buyer beware..........
Sprinters don't pitch. They RUN..........
The poor information out there is endless people.........Buyer beware..........
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To add to this current theme... I'm sure that we can all agree that straight vs. A slight pivot prior to launch is still WAY better than a completely pivoted foot. IMO, I believe as long as she is able to drive out hard with the quad muscles and not her inner thigh, she's fine.
- Jun 18, 2010
- 2,615
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Many of us follow both BM and Hillhouse, and this is one of those moments where our mentors disagree. A slight turn of the pivot foot is probably OK as long as it does not impede the ability of the lower body to create the powerful forward momentum.
[video=youtube_share;uTaq3_38Mek]http://youtu.be/uTaq3_38Mek[/video]
[video=youtube_share;uTaq3_38Mek]http://youtu.be/uTaq3_38Mek[/video]
- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,796
- 63
Knight.........Bills lesson clip is about not turning the foot sideways like a baseball pitcher........We do not disagree on this subject at all........However, understanding the bio-mechanics that allow a pitcher to achieve TWO goals can go along way toward achieving as close to perfection as possible.........
Goal one........A strong push off the plate........Goal two........Open the hips sooner then later........
Lets see if Bill and I agree or disagree with my original assertion that turning the pivot 10-20 degrees to initiate the push.....to turn the knee out........to support the hips opening.......is what must happen for high level mechanics.....
I'd like you (everyone) to watch this closely......Both what the foot does.......And the direction the knee flexes.......in high level mechanics........
Once again.......It's the Hanson Principle.........
Goal one........A strong push off the plate........Goal two........Open the hips sooner then later........
Lets see if Bill and I agree or disagree with my original assertion that turning the pivot 10-20 degrees to initiate the push.....to turn the knee out........to support the hips opening.......is what must happen for high level mechanics.....
I'd like you (everyone) to watch this closely......Both what the foot does.......And the direction the knee flexes.......in high level mechanics........
Once again.......It's the Hanson Principle.........
- Jun 18, 2010
- 2,615
- 38
Knight.........Bills lesson clip is about not turning the foot sideways like a baseball pitcher........We do not disagree on this subject at all........However, understanding the bio-mechanics that allow a pitcher to achieve TWO goals can go along way toward achieving as close to perfection as possible.........
Goal one........A strong push off the plate........Goal two........Open the hips sooner then later........
Lets see if Bill and I agree or disagree with my original assertion that turning the pivot 10-20 degrees to initiate the push.....to turn the knee out........to support the hips opening.......is what must happen for high level mechanics.....
I'd like you (everyone) to watch this closely......Both what the foot does.......And the direction the knee flexes.......in high level mechanics........
Once again.......It's the Hanson Principle.........
Thanks BM. What you and Bill, may or may not know is there are parents out there, like me, who analyze everything, we are searching for every morsel of information to try and help our kids get better that's how I found this sight and your original IR thread.
I know you don't advocate turning the foot sideways like a baseball pitcher, but from Bill's words on this video clip (below), I can see how those obsessed, like me, could take that to mean, keep that pivot foot straight (as an absolute). That is why threads like this one, whereby you thoroughly document your position (with video) helps us filter good information and sets us down the right path.
"You gotta try and imagine in the brain that the rubber is like a starters block. You push off like a sprinter does, now have you ever in your life seen a sprinter take off, ready, get set, go (then turns foot sideways), no they don't twist their foot, they keep everything straight and they push straight, that's what we gotta try and do here too. Don't let your foot go sideways, otherwise straight is gonna be that way"...
When you said:
I took that to be a direct reference to Bill's sprinter analogy (above). I apologize if I misunderstood.
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- Jul 14, 2008
- 1,796
- 63
Knight........Forums/Thread on the internet are hard to deal with sometimes. Here is an example of what happens to good information........Albiet NOT on purpose in many cases such as yours........
In my original post on this subject.......I said I teach my students to allow the foot to pivot open 10-20 degees to initiate the push........For the reasons I clearly explained regarding the knee alignment to the opening hips.......To support a goal in ALL high level mechanics.......
Your reply to my post was to tell me "with all due respect" about how most pitchers START at setup with a straight foot and knee......
So you see Knight........You were responding to something I never addressed.......The Setup..........
The bad part of this is, as you said, there are people here trying to learn........From your statement above in quote......And the clip you posted of Bill in a lesson..........You are telling people NOT to allow the foot to pivot open........Which is dead wrong on so many levels........And is NOT what Bill does in real life regardless........
You see........As accomplished pitching coach with 25 years of experience........I understood Bills video.........And the reasons for his statements and demo.........And those of you still trying to learn, can unwitting take a clip, or piece of information and miss-interpret it's true meaning/context.........
As was/is the case of Bill clip.........Or just simply responding to what your minds eye is interpreting, versus what was really being written..........By me in the pivot foot example.........
The good part is that I am willing to re-write, or re-focus the point in most cases........Especially for nice guys like you who are truely looking for the best information available........Vs. someone just looking to show what they know so to speak..........
On BTW.......My "spinters don't pitch" statement was for someone who made the statement that sprinters don't "rock back"...........The point being that almost ALL high level pitchers "rock back" before initiating the sequence.......Including Bill Hillhouse AND Cat Osterman........And they do it for the "running start" they get from the initial push from the back foot to the front foot..........Otherwise.......Why wouldn't we just stay over/up on the front leg and PUSH?..........Such as in the one legged drill with the pivot foot push from the mound........Why not just pitch like that?..........Good Leg drive takes TWO LEGS.....That's why.......But that's another subject.........
Regarding this sprinter analogy..........Here's what I'll say..........IF you find a super slo-mo of the sprinter in a block you will note to things........Number one.........The starting block has the front/rear foot ALMOST vertical to the ground and is supported by the arms/hands on the ground, which is bio-mechanically COMPLETELY different then pitchcing.........And as stated previsously.......The sprinter goal is to keep the hips square to the track so as to use BOTH LEGS to push from the ground for an extended period of time..........They DO NOT want to "open the hips" while they "RUN"........
Secondly.........If you note the "very initial push" from the starting block, you'll see the back foot push first.......Which assists in the "running start" out of the blocks........Which is the ONLY analogy that translates to pitching outside of the explosiveness of the lead foot push..........
It's all good Knight........I respect your style........And willingness to see the forest through the trees........
In my original post on this subject.......I said I teach my students to allow the foot to pivot open 10-20 degees to initiate the push........For the reasons I clearly explained regarding the knee alignment to the opening hips.......To support a goal in ALL high level mechanics.......
Your reply to my post was to tell me "with all due respect" about how most pitchers START at setup with a straight foot and knee......
So you see Knight........You were responding to something I never addressed.......The Setup..........
The bad part of this is, as you said, there are people here trying to learn........From your statement above in quote......And the clip you posted of Bill in a lesson..........You are telling people NOT to allow the foot to pivot open........Which is dead wrong on so many levels........And is NOT what Bill does in real life regardless........
You see........As accomplished pitching coach with 25 years of experience........I understood Bills video.........And the reasons for his statements and demo.........And those of you still trying to learn, can unwitting take a clip, or piece of information and miss-interpret it's true meaning/context.........
As was/is the case of Bill clip.........Or just simply responding to what your minds eye is interpreting, versus what was really being written..........By me in the pivot foot example.........
The good part is that I am willing to re-write, or re-focus the point in most cases........Especially for nice guys like you who are truely looking for the best information available........Vs. someone just looking to show what they know so to speak..........
On BTW.......My "spinters don't pitch" statement was for someone who made the statement that sprinters don't "rock back"...........The point being that almost ALL high level pitchers "rock back" before initiating the sequence.......Including Bill Hillhouse AND Cat Osterman........And they do it for the "running start" they get from the initial push from the back foot to the front foot..........Otherwise.......Why wouldn't we just stay over/up on the front leg and PUSH?..........Such as in the one legged drill with the pivot foot push from the mound........Why not just pitch like that?..........Good Leg drive takes TWO LEGS.....That's why.......But that's another subject.........
Regarding this sprinter analogy..........Here's what I'll say..........IF you find a super slo-mo of the sprinter in a block you will note to things........Number one.........The starting block has the front/rear foot ALMOST vertical to the ground and is supported by the arms/hands on the ground, which is bio-mechanically COMPLETELY different then pitchcing.........And as stated previsously.......The sprinter goal is to keep the hips square to the track so as to use BOTH LEGS to push from the ground for an extended period of time..........They DO NOT want to "open the hips" while they "RUN"........
Secondly.........If you note the "very initial push" from the starting block, you'll see the back foot push first.......Which assists in the "running start" out of the blocks........Which is the ONLY analogy that translates to pitching outside of the explosiveness of the lead foot push..........
It's all good Knight........I respect your style........And willingness to see the forest through the trees........
