If college pitchers need only the rise,drop and changeup; What should a 14U pitcher be throwing? My daughter has a mid 50s fast ball, nice peel drop, 2 decent change ups 1 which she uses she as an offspeed. No rise ball yet we have just started that. Should we even mess with teaching a curve or screw?
3 Pitches?
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I think too many people try to force on others....... Pitch A,B,C. When they should be concerned what works for the individual pitcher. I've seen loads of pitchers in the real world, ( not just the .0001% we see at the WCWS ), and most had 2 "K" pitches, and a off-speed or change up. And not including a setup fastball. No need to push a rise ( and I mean push where it's a do or die thing ) on DD if she is killing the competition with a screw and drop. If she picks up the rise great, but don't think it must be done.
I pitched college baseball so I'm always looking at pitching in more detail than most. ( dissecting it like a science project unfortunately ) Here is my 2 cents from experience and conversion into fast pitch for my DD.
1. Rise can be effective, but most can't throw it true. ( just high vertical FB ) The pitch is too close to, and the easiest for the eye to track. Also most umpire high zones are small, if the catcher has to extend the arm to catch he's gonna most likely call ball.
2. Drop is better in my opinion for a swinging strike. But also has a disadvantage. Low breaking balls have the highest wild and pass ball %. Even with MLB catchers. And again, if the catcher has to drop n block in dramatic fashion with the drop, that dang ump most likely call ball again. Plus most stolen bases are on low pitches because the catcher must stay down to catch, then rise to throw. Pitches medium to high the catcher is already in motion.
3. Curve and screw IMO are the hardest to judge trajectory. Probably the highest "looking" strike or "K". How many times have you seen a batter follow/lean/turn head with no swing on inside/outside pitches? Working corners also leads to hits off the handle or cap with little power. But they need "some" vertical movement too. Or at least a curve AND a drop curve etc.
Also working outside RH batter ( with runner on 1 ) gives an advantage to the catcher again. Her field of vision. Looking up/down ( and watching a runner ) is harder than looking to the right........keeping the runner in peripheral vision. Easier throw downs and pick offs at 1.
I pitched college baseball so I'm always looking at pitching in more detail than most. ( dissecting it like a science project unfortunately ) Here is my 2 cents from experience and conversion into fast pitch for my DD.
1. Rise can be effective, but most can't throw it true. ( just high vertical FB ) The pitch is too close to, and the easiest for the eye to track. Also most umpire high zones are small, if the catcher has to extend the arm to catch he's gonna most likely call ball.
2. Drop is better in my opinion for a swinging strike. But also has a disadvantage. Low breaking balls have the highest wild and pass ball %. Even with MLB catchers. And again, if the catcher has to drop n block in dramatic fashion with the drop, that dang ump most likely call ball again. Plus most stolen bases are on low pitches because the catcher must stay down to catch, then rise to throw. Pitches medium to high the catcher is already in motion.
3. Curve and screw IMO are the hardest to judge trajectory. Probably the highest "looking" strike or "K". How many times have you seen a batter follow/lean/turn head with no swing on inside/outside pitches? Working corners also leads to hits off the handle or cap with little power. But they need "some" vertical movement too. Or at least a curve AND a drop curve etc.
Also working outside RH batter ( with runner on 1 ) gives an advantage to the catcher again. Her field of vision. Looking up/down ( and watching a runner ) is harder than looking to the right........keeping the runner in peripheral vision. Easier throw downs and pick offs at 1.
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- Jul 26, 2010
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When college coaches say "3 pitches", the intent is that the pitcher knows how to move those pitches around. They should know how to make that drop break in or out a bit, same with the rise. They don't just go straight "up" or straight "down" all the time.
-W
-W
We are talking about a 13 or 14 year old girl. As a former Div I coach and someone who specifically coaches pitchers, I probably have a different view of pitching than many here. I have had 16 year olds tell me they could throw 7 pitches! I could not be less impressed. I just got home from working with the national team (Olympic hopefully) programs in Denmark and Croatia. Not one girl under 20 there could throw any pitch for more than 60% first strikes. They have had paid coaches from the US, Italy, Netherlands, and New Zealand come there and do clinics. I have a different approach.
I teach throwing strikes first. I teach spotting those strikes second. I teach kids to have one pitch that I refer to as a foundational pitch which they can throw strikes on a corner, preferably low, for a minimum of 75% strikes, and preferably 80+% strikes. I also teach a change-up. Once this is mastered, I teach a third pitch. I do not consider a screw-ball a foundational pitch. If you watch players at a higher level, you will see more misplaced screwballs hit over the fence than anything else. Even in the sample swing videos in Technical Hitting you will see screwball after screwball leave the park. I don't think it is a bad pitch, but I do not consider it a foundational pitch.
The more foundational (primary) pitches a kid has the better. And I hope those pitches when combined with a change-up have 3 speeds; as in change-up, a drop-ball, and a fastball for example. I want the drop-ball 3-4 mph slower than a fastball or rise-ball. Think about it! The bat goes from shoulder to shoulder, the ball is diving, and the bat if not timed properly is already rising toward the forward shoulder - being out in front of the pitch! Foundational pitches are fastball, drop-ball, rise-ball, and for some girls a curve-ball. A screwball is a supplemental pitch along with a change-up. In other words, you can't pitch off of a change-up as a primary pitch.
I also believe that a ball which moves down and in on a "slapper" is less effective against a RH batter. So if you can't make it move both ways, it is less effective. The best pitches and best approach is to worry about pitches moving on 90 degree planes, straight up, straight down, straight sideways in either direction. Other movement is an asset, but not an easy target. I rarely saw bi-lateral movements, as in a rise-ball or drop-ball, by one pitcher in Div. I pitching. Amanda Freed is a good example of a girl who had too many pitches. She was ahead of Jenny Finch as a 14-17 year old. Amanda never got control of most of them. Jenny threw fewer pitches, but grew more, had more raw power, and passed her up in college (Arizona vs. UCLA). Jenny's pitches don't move as much as some, just look at Cat Osterman's rollover drop-ball compared to Finch. Her wrist roll is mistimed. The movement of Angela Tincher's rise-ball blows Finch's away! But Jenny does throw strikes with power consistently, something Amanda Freed didn't master as well.
Bill Hillhouse and I teach pitching almost identically. However, I do like a curve-ball which he doesn't. But fundamentally we are 95% the same. I do, unlike Bill, allow variations in weight distribution. Like Bill, I don't teach dropping the hand and ball out of the glove, unless it is with a bent elbow and very short. Too many girls throw with a straight arm through the entire circle. What isn't similar to Bill is from Michele Smith's or Ernie Parker's influence, though they would agree on many aspects.
As for teaching pitches, some girls can learn to throw a roll-over drop in two days or less. I had a Danish student throwing a rise the first day, but everyone else was awed by that! I don't mind adding in pitches while control is developed. I just don't emphasize it as the most relevant aspect of the learning curve. If a college coach can't teach pitching she may demand more. If the coach CAN teach pitching, then 3 pitches with good control, demonstrating a change of speed is enough for a recruit. Most girls don't learn real sound rise-ball mechanics, so it is almost easier to start them yourself. I have had pitchers throw up to 8 straight games without a walk! That impresses me more than a screwball or a 7 pitch repertoire.
As a footnote, Netherlands defeated Italy in the Euro Fastpitch Championships at Ronchi de Legionari near Trieste Italy this summer. The girl who pitched for Italy is named Stella Turazzi. Stella threw a rise-ball, a screw-ball, and a curve-ball in the two championship games. Every pitch was virtually the same speed. The Italian coaches for some strange reason didn't like any of their three pitchers throwing change-ups. I have no comment on this. It baffled me and Stella. She got hammered after she got 2 force outs on bunts at 3rd, in the 8th inning, and then had a repeat in the final game. She is learning the rollover-drop to supplement her rise-ball, and giving up the screwball for now. With different coaches she will have 3 speeds.
I teach throwing strikes first. I teach spotting those strikes second. I teach kids to have one pitch that I refer to as a foundational pitch which they can throw strikes on a corner, preferably low, for a minimum of 75% strikes, and preferably 80+% strikes. I also teach a change-up. Once this is mastered, I teach a third pitch. I do not consider a screw-ball a foundational pitch. If you watch players at a higher level, you will see more misplaced screwballs hit over the fence than anything else. Even in the sample swing videos in Technical Hitting you will see screwball after screwball leave the park. I don't think it is a bad pitch, but I do not consider it a foundational pitch.
The more foundational (primary) pitches a kid has the better. And I hope those pitches when combined with a change-up have 3 speeds; as in change-up, a drop-ball, and a fastball for example. I want the drop-ball 3-4 mph slower than a fastball or rise-ball. Think about it! The bat goes from shoulder to shoulder, the ball is diving, and the bat if not timed properly is already rising toward the forward shoulder - being out in front of the pitch! Foundational pitches are fastball, drop-ball, rise-ball, and for some girls a curve-ball. A screwball is a supplemental pitch along with a change-up. In other words, you can't pitch off of a change-up as a primary pitch.
I also believe that a ball which moves down and in on a "slapper" is less effective against a RH batter. So if you can't make it move both ways, it is less effective. The best pitches and best approach is to worry about pitches moving on 90 degree planes, straight up, straight down, straight sideways in either direction. Other movement is an asset, but not an easy target. I rarely saw bi-lateral movements, as in a rise-ball or drop-ball, by one pitcher in Div. I pitching. Amanda Freed is a good example of a girl who had too many pitches. She was ahead of Jenny Finch as a 14-17 year old. Amanda never got control of most of them. Jenny threw fewer pitches, but grew more, had more raw power, and passed her up in college (Arizona vs. UCLA). Jenny's pitches don't move as much as some, just look at Cat Osterman's rollover drop-ball compared to Finch. Her wrist roll is mistimed. The movement of Angela Tincher's rise-ball blows Finch's away! But Jenny does throw strikes with power consistently, something Amanda Freed didn't master as well.
Bill Hillhouse and I teach pitching almost identically. However, I do like a curve-ball which he doesn't. But fundamentally we are 95% the same. I do, unlike Bill, allow variations in weight distribution. Like Bill, I don't teach dropping the hand and ball out of the glove, unless it is with a bent elbow and very short. Too many girls throw with a straight arm through the entire circle. What isn't similar to Bill is from Michele Smith's or Ernie Parker's influence, though they would agree on many aspects.
As for teaching pitches, some girls can learn to throw a roll-over drop in two days or less. I had a Danish student throwing a rise the first day, but everyone else was awed by that! I don't mind adding in pitches while control is developed. I just don't emphasize it as the most relevant aspect of the learning curve. If a college coach can't teach pitching she may demand more. If the coach CAN teach pitching, then 3 pitches with good control, demonstrating a change of speed is enough for a recruit. Most girls don't learn real sound rise-ball mechanics, so it is almost easier to start them yourself. I have had pitchers throw up to 8 straight games without a walk! That impresses me more than a screwball or a 7 pitch repertoire.
As a footnote, Netherlands defeated Italy in the Euro Fastpitch Championships at Ronchi de Legionari near Trieste Italy this summer. The girl who pitched for Italy is named Stella Turazzi. Stella threw a rise-ball, a screw-ball, and a curve-ball in the two championship games. Every pitch was virtually the same speed. The Italian coaches for some strange reason didn't like any of their three pitchers throwing change-ups. I have no comment on this. It baffled me and Stella. She got hammered after she got 2 force outs on bunts at 3rd, in the 8th inning, and then had a repeat in the final game. She is learning the rollover-drop to supplement her rise-ball, and giving up the screwball for now. With different coaches she will have 3 speeds.
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Location and command are far more important than movement. If you have a good straight pitch and a changeup both with fantastic control you can pitch anywhere/anytime. That's why I believe mechanics are the most important aspect of pitching. It will allow you to be more consistent and to reproduce the pitching motion for every pitch.
????
Against good hitters, a pitcher has to have:
(1) A reasonable amount of speed;
(2) Great control;
(3) An ability to change speeds; and
(4) A vertical movement pitch.
Anything else and the pitcher is simply throwing batting practice to good hitters.
You can't say one is more important than the other. It takes all four.
I agree with everything up until the curve. I haven't seen a "good" college pitcher (D1, D2 or D3) with just a curve.
I agree with you on the screw. Ever since the NCAA started enforcing the "pitching lane", the screw has become much less effective.
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- Nov 29, 2009
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They've also made it harder by shrinking the strike zone at the top and bottom. It would seem the NCAA is looking to artificially turn the game's offensive categories stats up. Then throw in all the hot bats that weren't around 10 years ago and you have girls hitting homeruns who shouldn't be.
- Jul 26, 2010
- 3,553
- 0
Of course they are. They're trying to make the sport more popular for spectators and TV viewers. Watch the offensive slugfests that we call college softball, and then go watch an NPF game. Way different. NPF games are almost boring to the uninitiated viewer, because they are generally pitcher battles. Of course, Japanese pro fastpitch games are more exciting then either, but that's another subject.
-W
I am not sure I understand correctly, but do you mean that control is better left until later? I must say that I have never coached a team of 10, 12, 14, or even 16U teams. I have only coached these kids in clinics. But throwing pitches without control helps the defense and pitcher in no way! If coaches are putting pressure on kids, then I suggest they should look at results rather than an "inflated resume". I liked your comment about Joan Joyce. She did move her pitches better than anyone of her time. I was thinking of Kathy Arendsen when you mentioned her. I also think Joan would like to teach young girls the sling-shot deliver if she could. I have never seen a pitcher that could throw a pitch and change horizontal movement directions. Maybe they exist, but I never saw one. But if I was facing the California Bat Busters back in the late 90s and 00s, I would love a curve ball pitcher or even better a drop ball pitcher who could make that thing run down and in! And yes, college goes by fast. That is why some of the most valuable time are the 2 player sessions we are allowed between fall preseason and January 1. It is a time to get specific. As an example, we had a girl named Tara from California that was in her senior year. During the fall she couldn't throw a strike. She had gotten involved with a football player that literally derailed her life and career. She had lost 25 pounds and was rail thin because he was taking all of her stipend money to party. During the first 2 player, 2 hour practice session she threw 63 straight balls! This was after her disasterous fall season. Now normally I wouldn't have had a pitcher throw that many, but I was freaking out. I just kept clicking the counter and sweating. And it took well past January 1 to get her straightened out! I might add that her father was her pitching coach (male pitcher) and it didn't help. I would have preferred 63 straight strikes
I agree with much of your post, at least intent. I don't think a fastball should ever be straight, and if as Cat Osterman admits, she corkscrews her fastball, then she was taught wrong. A fastball should have enough topspin to move down. Look at the sections of the strike zone and batting averages and your point will be made. I mentioned before that the most successful pitcher against The Netherlands was from Russia, who threw 27 of 31 first pitches as fastballs. Of the four which missed, she followed up with a fastball. She painted the low outside corner consistently. The other four first pitches were 1 curve-ball, 2 rise-balls, and 1 screw-ball. The game was 1-1 after 7 innings.
One reason that the Russian girl was successful was that the Netherlands players are patient, and don't go after "pitchers" pitches. A more aggressive team might have taken that pitch off the agenda.
Please keep in mind that The Netherlands would be a top 10 University team here. I think Italy would be close. The Czech Republic would be a top 20 team as would Russia if their coaching (Cuban) and catcher were better.
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