- May 3, 2014
- 2,149
- 83
Launch Movement
- Thread starter NoonTime
- Start date
Welcome to Discuss Fastpitch
Your FREE Account is waiting to the Best Softball Community on the Web.
FiveFrameSwing
Banned
Lol ... the Hanson Principle doesn't take the date of the information into account ... it simply is a filter to be applied by those seeking the truth.
Howe
Blowhard in training
- Aug 28, 2013
- 1,920
- 0
Thank you!
JJsqueeze
Dad, Husband....legend
I can't do this without losing sight of the pitcher. I have to open my stance ULL style to be able to coil enough such that I turn naturally when I lift the front leg and keep sight of the pitcher. Then again I am old.
I see this as an example of what coil should feel like and nothing more.
Seems like a damn good little demo to me to describe a feel. I was able to watch it and try it in less
than a minute. Seems like it overcooks the coil a little IMO (since i cant see the pitcher) but that does not mean it is not useful for a drill to create a feel.
Going back to RHC's post- good stuff RHC, I have a lot of respect for your pragmatic approach. You keep the whole focus where it belongs- learning how to teach kids to swing better. Good on ya.
CP,
I appreciate your taking the time. Lot of content all coming my way. Swimming upstream has been exhausting. I'll have to break this up to comment.
I'm HC for TT. DD is hitting well. Batting .450 and hitting with power. Lots of extra base hits. Playing mixed A+B ball so pitching isn't always best around.
Her current swing does not yet represent what is being taught. The ground work is there, some coil, some effort on scap, but make no doubt about it, at the end of the day it is a pulled knob. I want it to be more like the clip that I posted of BP.
Time will tell if the changes are good or bad.
No, I do not think that max humeral raise is his trigger. I think he could have stayed there if he wanted to. He could have launched much later if he wanted.
As TM bluntly stated in his blog, my DD is not a model for the HI. I agree. We are not done yet. I'll try and find time to break down the clip and let you know what I am seeing.
I think that rear arm adduction is an absolute killer for most DD's here.
When you adduct the rear arm, you are sequencing. Adducting the rear arm is an unconnected movement that does not force other things to move. When you adduct your rear arm down, you must then abduct your front arm up if you wish to maintain a triangle <-- (insert whatever geometric reference you use... I don't think it's an absolute). If you are doing these two movements in sequence, you are not "turning the triangle" and you are certainly not "turning the barrel". You are simply sequencing in a manner that simulates it.
I hope you are still with me here. If you are, please try this:
- Get in your hitting stance (I assume elbow is up somewhat and not already fully pinched)
- Adduct your rear arm down
- Did your lead arm move in any substantial way? Answer should be no.
- If yes, did you consciously move it in snyc with the rear elbow?
- If yes, you sequenced. I just said lower the rear elbow, try again.
- Now get back in your hitting stance
- Now make your rear elbow lower like it did before, but this time do not adduct the arm. Use your scap and thoratic extension lower it. For purposes of this exercise, your core will stretch/compress/move.
- Did your lead arm move? Answer should be yes
- Did it pretty much move one for one as your rear arm moved?
- Did it move because you told it to, or did it move because it was going along for the ride?
- Maybe you even felt a little rear hip projection
This is why I say that the front side arm movement pattern is a no-teach. It just goes along for the ride and looks cool while it's doing so.
Does that make sense? Hopefully it is clear and not to spaghetti like.
I think his hip rotation happened this way.
- His rear hip was fully coiled around his rear leg and physicall could not go back further.
- At this point any IR of his rear leg will not be consumed by slack in his rear hip. This will force his rear hip to turn with his rear leg.
- Because rear hip and front hip are connect by the pelvis, his hips will move around with his rear leg
I think I've been clear about lower body mechanics. I know I provided a lot of contrary content to chew on, but it's out there.
I appreciate your taking the time. Lot of content all coming my way. Swimming upstream has been exhausting. I'll have to break this up to comment.
He thinks she is kicking A!
I'm HC for TT. DD is hitting well. Batting .450 and hitting with power. Lots of extra base hits. Playing mixed A+B ball so pitching isn't always best around.
Her current swing does not yet represent what is being taught. The ground work is there, some coil, some effort on scap, but make no doubt about it, at the end of the day it is a pulled knob. I want it to be more like the clip that I posted of BP.
Time will tell if the changes are good or bad.
First thing. I disagree that in frame 24 Manny is at "heel plant". His front heel is raised. His heel gets planted in frame 25 by his scap launch.Manny:
ahhh...question time...
Do you think the max humeral raise is Manny's trigger? Scap load?
No, I do not think that max humeral raise is his trigger. I think he could have stayed there if he wanted to. He could have launched much later if he wanted.
Max humeral raise was not the trigger. I'm saying the scap move was the first positive reaction to hit the ball, thus the scap launch was the trigger... Everything else up to that point was business as usual, same as every pitch, trying to time the pitcher to be at the right point for "optimal" results.
He is going all-in to get that ball. The speed at which he plans to go after this ball = MAX. He reacted to the ball when it was in a position that his MAX effort would hit it.
No question here. I guess that's what we are discussing.
As TM bluntly stated in his blog, my DD is not a model for the HI. I agree. We are not done yet. I'll try and find time to break down the clip and let you know what I am seeing.
I feel what you are saying, but I was compelled to advance a topic... Even if I tripped into doing it.
I think that rear arm adduction is an absolute killer for most DD's here.
When you adduct the rear arm, you are sequencing. Adducting the rear arm is an unconnected movement that does not force other things to move. When you adduct your rear arm down, you must then abduct your front arm up if you wish to maintain a triangle <-- (insert whatever geometric reference you use... I don't think it's an absolute). If you are doing these two movements in sequence, you are not "turning the triangle" and you are certainly not "turning the barrel". You are simply sequencing in a manner that simulates it.
I hope you are still with me here. If you are, please try this:
- Get in your hitting stance (I assume elbow is up somewhat and not already fully pinched)
- Adduct your rear arm down
- Did your lead arm move in any substantial way? Answer should be no.
- If yes, did you consciously move it in snyc with the rear elbow?
- If yes, you sequenced. I just said lower the rear elbow, try again.
- Now get back in your hitting stance
- Now make your rear elbow lower like it did before, but this time do not adduct the arm. Use your scap and thoratic extension lower it. For purposes of this exercise, your core will stretch/compress/move.
- Did your lead arm move? Answer should be yes
- Did it pretty much move one for one as your rear arm moved?
- Did it move because you told it to, or did it move because it was going along for the ride?
- Maybe you even felt a little rear hip projection
This is why I say that the front side arm movement pattern is a no-teach. It just goes along for the ride and looks cool while it's doing so.
Does that make sense? Hopefully it is clear and not to spaghetti like
.I think his hip rotation happened this way.
- His rear hip was fully coiled around his rear leg and physicall could not go back further.
- At this point any IR of his rear leg will not be consumed by slack in his rear hip. This will force his rear hip to turn with his rear leg.
- Because rear hip and front hip are connect by the pelvis, his hips will move around with his rear leg
The rest of the questions you have regarding hand path are irrelevant IMO until you settle on what lower mechanics you want to follow.
Butters comment about posterior only is spot on IMO - look at what you're doing - now is the off-season...if you are going to change, now is the time...CP
pardon the edits...walking dead time
I think I've been clear about lower body mechanics. I know I provided a lot of contrary content to chew on, but it's out there.
Thank you, I think this is a great video! I bookmarked it!
BTW, I'm not a HI mouthpiece... I'm just a dad who supports the concepts. Are finding answers easy at HI, no way. If you can't tell, I am struggling somewhat with the final pieces of the puzzle. I could have the whole thing jacked up, but I don't think so. Many senior members here spent time at HI, I am hoping that this endeavor will help finish putting things together.
In the video I think he is just demonstrating a way to feel coil and that when he lifts his front leg, he uncoils. I think it is a great and timeless demo for coil.
That isn't how one would coil to swing... I don't think he advocates doing it exactly like that.
If you coil up like he says, and instead of just lifting your front foot, you pump it into the coil and into an engaged core, you can lift it without immediately uncoiling too. This click back movement will deepen the coil.
The babe clip, good point. I don't think he was fully coiled when he moved out. There was slack in his rear hip before he moved out. He coiled as he moved out. If you repeat TM's exercise and lift the front foot as you coil back, you don't just uncoil... There was no coil to be uncoiled... That was actually a pretty cool thing to try.
Are you inferring that the HI pattern suggests that you uncoil to swing? We both know that's not true.
BTW, I'm not a HI mouthpiece... I'm just a dad who supports the concepts. Are finding answers easy at HI, no way. If you can't tell, I am struggling somewhat with the final pieces of the puzzle. I could have the whole thing jacked up, but I don't think so. Many senior members here spent time at HI, I am hoping that this endeavor will help finish putting things together.
In the video I think he is just demonstrating a way to feel coil and that when he lifts his front leg, he uncoils. I think it is a great and timeless demo for coil.
That isn't how one would coil to swing... I don't think he advocates doing it exactly like that.
If you coil up like he says, and instead of just lifting your front foot, you pump it into the coil and into an engaged core, you can lift it without immediately uncoiling too. This click back movement will deepen the coil.
The babe clip, good point. I don't think he was fully coiled when he moved out. There was slack in his rear hip before he moved out. He coiled as he moved out. If you repeat TM's exercise and lift the front foot as you coil back, you don't just uncoil... There was no coil to be uncoiled... That was actually a pretty cool thing to try.
Are you inferring that the HI pattern suggests that you uncoil to swing? We both know that's not true.
And I appreciate the thoughtfulness and civility of your posts!
He thinks she is kicking A!
I'm HC for TT. DD is hitting well. Batting .450 and hitting with power. Lots of extra base hits. Playing mixed A+B ball so pitching isn't always best around.
Glad to hear it!
Fair enough, I won't quibble over a frame...my point there is IMO they plant\move in synch - meaning I don't believe the foot reacted to the scap launch. I could be wrong...but I just don't feel that one drives the other...
Agreed. Which seems contrary to the scap launch\heel plant relationship above. But I could be misunderstanding you as well...
Maybe a question of semantics between us - but to me it's the top hand torque that launches the scap and slots the elbow. If I simply pull my top hand back and bottom hand forward, I can slot the rear arm while having my lead arm raise and avoid the awful barrel dump that forced adduction can have. Similar to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8mJXDGl5pU
I am able to replicate the movements as you describe. I am also able to slot the rear elbow\raise the front elbow while establishing a pivot point at my rear shoulder without actively\consciously pinching and\or launching my scap. I'm not saying it doesn't happen I'm just saying I don't think about it. IMO - and more importantly to me - it is easier for me to describe "pull the handle in opposite directions" to get the barrel to move quickly and suddenly to anyone, of any age (and I work with 7-16 year olds) than it is t try to explain scap load and launch to them.
I don't spend a lot of time on the lead arm...but when I do, I use Dos Equis
err...this is how I teach it...with full kudos to BM of course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yiot08tJpDIJust some more food for thought on by coil...that is different than what TM teaches...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5BlEXB2zWA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UNuemadDwQ
And lastly...the easiest way I have found to teach it:
NOTE that The HIP is the first thing that moves out as SB coils into his rear...forward by coil...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5yOE2sIiNg
CP
- Oct 25, 2009
- 3,334
- 48
How about lower half (hip drive, not primarily knee) affects the heel plant. The top half (scaps, if you like) follows in sequence. Hands are the last to move; but not the least by any means.
rdbass made a comment in another thread that describes the top half pretty well—"launch and direct".
rdbass made a comment in another thread that describes the top half pretty well—"launch and direct".
- Aug 28, 2012
- 457
- 0
Ok Rich,
I saw you wanted to move on from talking about Miggy, what with the whole "cloud of deceit you created" BS. I'm sure since you are such a careful reader that you saw in that thread I was only ever asking about Miggy, only ever discussing Miggy, heck I even narrowed it down to 3 measly frames of Miggy. But that's ok... I see your boy is Carpenter now. So let's talk Carpenter. Here's a GIF...
it's a little slowed down so you can't really just count frames, but what frame does he Launch:
And what frames are his:
I'm looking forward to a dose of that indisputable truth! Bring it!
I saw you wanted to move on from talking about Miggy, what with the whole "cloud of deceit you created" BS. I'm sure since you are such a careful reader that you saw in that thread I was only ever asking about Miggy, only ever discussing Miggy, heck I even narrowed it down to 3 measly frames of Miggy. But that's ok... I see your boy is Carpenter now. So let's talk Carpenter. Here's a GIF...
it's a little slowed down so you can't really just count frames, but what frame does he Launch:
And what frames are his:
I'm looking forward to a dose of that indisputable truth! Bring it!
Howe
Blowhard in training
- Aug 28, 2013
- 1,920
- 0
How did this change from the best - most consistent hitter in the game - to Carpenter and Wong???
Noon, did you ever get the answer you were looking for? Or are you getting the dodge/duck/dip/dive and dodge!?!
Noon, did you ever get the answer you were looking for? Or are you getting the dodge/duck/dip/dive and dodge!?!
Similar threads
