runner on third..batter walks
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Use the rules of the game to your advantage. Look back rule goes into effect the moment the batter/runner touches 1st base. At that moment, if no play is being made, the runner at 3rd must immediately return to 3rd base, or head to home plate. Immediately after ball 4, return the ball to the pitcher in the circle. She cannot be attempting to make any play on a player, but this does not mean she cannot be paying attention. F6 or F4 needs to be ready and covering 2nd base. When the batter/runner touches 1st, the runner at 3 must either return or advance. If they advance to home, the pitcher can throw the ball to F2 for the play at the plate, if they return to 3rd you now have a play on the runner going to 2nd. The pitcher can now throw to 2nd for the play on the batter/runner for a quick tag play, and if the runner on 3 breaks for home you now also have a play on them.
This needs to be practiced at length so the players can get the timing down. Again, the pitcher cannot be attempting a play on anyone or the look back rule doesnt go into effect, so they have to play their part in the action. The batter/runner heading for 2nd on a walk typically stops with good 12U and up teams. They learn how to defend the play and if it is attempted they will usually get both outs.
This needs to be practiced at length so the players can get the timing down. Again, the pitcher cannot be attempting a play on anyone or the look back rule doesnt go into effect, so they have to play their part in the action. The batter/runner heading for 2nd on a walk typically stops with good 12U and up teams. They learn how to defend the play and if it is attempted they will usually get both outs.
- Jan 15, 2009
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Depends on the age and skill level. Because the shennanigans that 10u/12U coaches run on this play don't work once girls are strong enough to make two good throws in time to get both outs.
If you don't have kids who can make two outs here, then you can try throwing the ball immediately to 1st base as a way to forestall this. An experienced base runner will know that she can start towards 2nd base on the throw from F3 to F1 so it isn't a complete answer but can sometimes make the other team pause at the very least.
Our standard defense on this was to get the ball back immediately to f1 then bring f4 close to 1st base and put her in a position (15 ft away , just behind baseline) that forces the batter runner to round 1st in front of f4. If she starts to go then a throw immediately to f4 who then either makes an immediate tag or throws home immediately to get the other runner from third. The idea is to keep everything in front of her and timing of the throw to the 2nd baseman is key so it needs to be pracitced over and over with a live runner for the pitcher to get the feel of when to throw. IF the opposing team sees you in this prevent position and respects your ability to make the throws then they likely will not test you. We got two outs on this play with a 14U team playing defense and never got two outs on a more standard 1st and 3rd steal situation that year so it's a high risk low reward proposition for the offense if they respect the defense.
If you don't have kids who can make two outs here, then you can try throwing the ball immediately to 1st base as a way to forestall this. An experienced base runner will know that she can start towards 2nd base on the throw from F3 to F1 so it isn't a complete answer but can sometimes make the other team pause at the very least.
Our standard defense on this was to get the ball back immediately to f1 then bring f4 close to 1st base and put her in a position (15 ft away , just behind baseline) that forces the batter runner to round 1st in front of f4. If she starts to go then a throw immediately to f4 who then either makes an immediate tag or throws home immediately to get the other runner from third. The idea is to keep everything in front of her and timing of the throw to the 2nd baseman is key so it needs to be pracitced over and over with a live runner for the pitcher to get the feel of when to throw. IF the opposing team sees you in this prevent position and respects your ability to make the throws then they likely will not test you. We got two outs on this play with a 14U team playing defense and never got two outs on a more standard 1st and 3rd steal situation that year so it's a high risk low reward proposition for the offense if they respect the defense.
you will get many answers here but read below - posted from stacie mahoe on another board. this (i believe) is the best way to defend against this situation. we are a first year 12u team and started using it this fall. so far, no one has scored on us this way. in fact, i've noticed some teams will not try anything here when they realize we are all over it, defenders are moving into position, etc. now, keep in mind the strategy does change a bit if the game is on the line and you absolutely have to keep that runner on 3B.
here is stacie mahoe's answer:
Definitely have the ball immediately thrown back to the pitcher. The longer the catcher holds it the tougher it is to defend this. Runner at 3b does NOT have to go back once the ball is back to the P if the batter/runner has not reached 1b yet.
If you fake, the look back is no longer in effect, runners can change direction.
It is tougher to defend at younger age levels because they don't have a good grasp of when to throw and aren't as good at throwing and catching quick and under pressure.
IMHO P should hold the ball down as long as she can...once that runner gets to 1st and ball is in circle, 3B has to either go home or go BACK. If she goes home, choice is simple, throw to C.
If she goes back to the bag, now she'll have to run a full 60 ft to score AFTER P makes a throw (if you choose to have her throw to 2nd as runner approaches). Throw too early and you get a run down situation which is not what you want because now both runners can dance and are free to go either way. Tough to watch both at the same time, especially at the younger age levels.
The ball is faster than a runner, if you train your IF for the P to throw to 2b when the runner gets close (committed to continue to 2nd and not turn around and go back to 1b) then your players should have enough time to make that catch apply a tag and throw home if the runner from 3b goes (remember, by this time she has to go a full 60ft).
If she's not aggressive and doesn't go immediately on P's throw, you should be able to get her.
If runner at 3b doesn't go right away, have the player at 2b immediately return the ball back to the P after the play at 2b is done.
Work it in practice and see what the timing is like.
here is stacie mahoe's answer:
Definitely have the ball immediately thrown back to the pitcher. The longer the catcher holds it the tougher it is to defend this. Runner at 3b does NOT have to go back once the ball is back to the P if the batter/runner has not reached 1b yet.
If you fake, the look back is no longer in effect, runners can change direction.
It is tougher to defend at younger age levels because they don't have a good grasp of when to throw and aren't as good at throwing and catching quick and under pressure.
IMHO P should hold the ball down as long as she can...once that runner gets to 1st and ball is in circle, 3B has to either go home or go BACK. If she goes home, choice is simple, throw to C.
If she goes back to the bag, now she'll have to run a full 60 ft to score AFTER P makes a throw (if you choose to have her throw to 2nd as runner approaches). Throw too early and you get a run down situation which is not what you want because now both runners can dance and are free to go either way. Tough to watch both at the same time, especially at the younger age levels.
The ball is faster than a runner, if you train your IF for the P to throw to 2b when the runner gets close (committed to continue to 2nd and not turn around and go back to 1b) then your players should have enough time to make that catch apply a tag and throw home if the runner from 3b goes (remember, by this time she has to go a full 60ft).
If she's not aggressive and doesn't go immediately on P's throw, you should be able to get her.
If runner at 3b doesn't go right away, have the player at 2b immediately return the ball back to the P after the play at 2b is done.
Work it in practice and see what the timing is like.
- Oct 25, 2009
- 3,334
- 48
Throw it back to the pitcher. Pitcher throws it to 1st. 1st holds it until the runner stops then throws it back to the pitcher.
This works. By moving the F4 closer to first she can make the play on the runner much closer and quicker then trying this play at second base. Often times it is while the runner at 3rd is still moving back toward 3rd base. If you make the play at second it allows the runner at 3rd to be prepared to go as soon as the ball leaves the pitchers hand. Its usually a longer throw from the circle to second base then it is from the circle to the spot you have F4 stationed for this play, its also a shorter throw for F4 to make back to the plate. I have seen this work many times for one out and the runner at 3rd does not advance and I have seen the out at home, way more times then I have seen the run score.
I have never seen this tried in 10u but 12u and up it works just fine.
So even if you get the ball back to the P the LBR does not start until the B/R reaches 1st?
Correct, the LBR does not take effect until the B/R reaches 1st base.
