How is pitcher "effectiveness" best measured?

[Scorekeeper]

You obviously missed my point.

Still assuming you are comparing this to MLB (since you again reference what appears to be MLB teams), it is a bit of a stretch to compare MLB professional teams (good or bad) to travel and league softball. Don't see how you could justify that in any way regardless of what type of minds are running the numbers. Your samples aren't the same. pros v beginners, kids, v adults, ..etc.

I didn’t miss your point at all. I’m talking about the process of some highly gifted people. If they wanted to, the folks who generate the numbers could easily differentiate, but they don’t. In any sport that runs stats, there are a wide range of abilities, but you don’t see numbers broken down that way for the general observer.

Are you saying that in SB there are a lot of adult teams playing kid teams, or pros playing beginners? That doesn’t happen in BB because teams are put into groups, and a team of adults would never play a team of kids in a tournament, nor would you ever see a team of pro players playing a team of beginners.

 

[Scorekeeper]

Don't current scoring programs such as GameChanger, IScore, and others track that along with other stats for individual pitchers? I'll check GC later. I know it gives lots of pitcher based stats, but I can't remember if opponent OBP is one of them. If not, it should be.

What difference does it make if those numbers are generated by a program, if you don’t have access to them? You seem to be of the belief that amateur numbers are totally open to the public the way ML numbers are, and they aren’t! So how could anyone categorize how good/bad a team way by OOPB?

By all means, if something works for you, use it. But, its not something I would do.

 

[Scorekeeper]

Consider a game ending at 1 - 0. The losing pitcher(s) allowed one run, and the winning pitcher(s) none (okay, I'm playing Captain Obvious). Assuming the batting orders of both teams did not suck, can we conclude winning pitcher(s) were more effective in this game on this day than the losing pitcher(s)?

Can we also conclude the best measure of pitcher effectiveness is the least number of runs allowed, regardless whether they are earned or unearned?

You’re pretty much right where I was in the OP. To me, you can’t get much more precision than pitches per run, and the larger the sample, the more precise it would be. If you go back and look at that attachment in the OP you’ll see Elgin with 68.2 PPR and Gomez with 49.2 PPR. That doesn’t mean one is better or worse than the other, but to me it says Elgin was more effective with his pitches, i.e. not giving up runs.

Of course that’s only my perspective.

 

[FP26]

Scorekeeper,

Maybe you mentioned this, but on the chart you provided, do your runs equal "total runs" or "earned runs"? Due to some defensive deficiencies at times, I have trouble holding a pitcher accountable for unearned runs. However, if the error is on the pitcher, I count the run.

 

[Scorekeeper]

Thats the point. Opponents OBP will measure every opponent the pitcher faces. If she pitches 100 innings, gives up 75 hits and 25 walks , but registers 300 outs, the opponents OBP is .250.

Thats the point. Opponents OBP will measure every opponent the pitcher faces. If she pitches 100 innings, gives up 75 hits and 25 walks , but registers 300 outs, the opponents OBP is .250.

Well, your example leaves out a few things, but in essence you’re correct. But how does that mesh with “I believe he is referring to opponent OBP vs. your pitcher(s).” In one instance you’re saying to use all hitters that pitcher faced, but I thought the discussion was to use that to determine quality of opponent.

 

[Scorekeeper]

Scorekeeper,

Maybe you mentioned this, but on the chart you provided, do your runs equal "total runs" or "earned runs"? Due to some defensive deficiencies at times, I have trouble holding a pitcher accountable for unearned runs. However, if the error is on the pitcher, I count the run.

On that particular report, Runs are gross runs. ERA is Earned Run Average, and TRA is Total Run Average.

I never twist a standard metric like ERA. What I’ll do is generate an entirely new metric because not everyone would understand I wasn’t computing that number the way they were used to.

The way I account for errors the pitcher makes, is with the attached.

http://www.infosports.com/scorekeeper/images/whipplus1.pdf

 

[FP26]

Well, your example leaves out a few things, but in essence you’re correct. But how does that mesh with “I believe he is referring to opponent OBP vs. your pitcher(s).” In one instance you’re saying to use all hitters that pitcher faced, but I thought the discussion was to use that to determine quality of opponent.

It was a simple example.... It seemed we were on different pages Opponents OBP is not a stat I use, I just thought I would interject because I was understanding it to be something different than what I perceived you were understanding it as. I believe the poster was looking at it in the same way one would calculate WHIP. As a stat that continues to update throughout the entire season. IMO, opponent's OBP is not going to vary much from WHIP. I do understand there are other things involved, but I think there is a positive relationship between them. I don't think OBP for one game is any more valuable than WHIP for one game. Heck, personally there are very few statistics that are valuable in a one game sample size.

IMO, the most important aspect to statistics is sample size. The larger the sample size, the smaller the margin of error.

 

[FP26]

On that particular report, Runs are gross runs. ERA is Earned Run Average, and TRA is Total Run Average.

I never twist a standard metric like ERA. What I’ll do is generate an entirely new metric because not everyone would understand I wasn’t computing that number the way they were used to.

The way I account for errors the pitcher makes, is with the attached.

http://www.infosports.com/scorekeeper/images/whipplus1.pdf

Thank you for that. I had not thought of utilizing "mistakes" in that sense, but I think it is a very good idea. While I find it difficult to hold a pitcher responsible for a run that scores because the short stop sails a throw over the first baseman's head, I have no problem charging the run to a pitcher if she is the one making the throwing error.

 

[Greenmonsters]

You’re pretty much right where I was in the OP. To me, you can’t get much more precision than pitches per run, and the larger the sample, the more precise it would be. If you go back and look at that attachment in the OP you’ll see Elgin with 68.2 PPR and Gomez with 49.2 PPR. That doesn’t mean one is better or worse than the other, but to me it says Elgin was more effective with his pitches, i.e. not giving up runs.

Of course that’s only my perspective.

The PPR stat doesn't consider pitcher "efficiency". Gomez would be more effective if he averaged 80 pitches/9 innings and Elgin averaged 120/9 innings.

 

[JAD]

What would be a good WHIP and ERA for a 16U travel ball "A" pitcher?

Excellent pitcher: WHIP under 1.00, ERA under 2.00, and a strikeout to walk ratio of 3:1 or better, opponents BA under .200

Good pitcher: WHIP under 1.50, ERA under 3.00, and a strikeout to walk ratio of 2.5:1 or better, opponents BA under .250

Average pitcher: WHIP under 2.00, ERA under 4.00, and a strikeout to walk ratio of 2:1 or better, opponents BA under .300