radial deviation

[tom.guerry]

separation is a bad word ?

or you think if hips turn faster than shoulders there will not be more separation ?

maybe JJA can take over.

 

[Wellphyt]

I see that there is a vast difference of opinions on hitting. Lots of very different and confusing terms used by each individual. I have learned how to teach power to both sides of the field from the same side of the plate. Maybe I am confused with the terms but I don't believe from the videos that some promote or the mechanics that are explained on here that a lot of what is taught here can deliver opposite field power.

Perhaps these videos will help.

YouTube - MrBatSpeed's Channel

YouTube - MrBatSpeed's Channel

 

[Chris O'Leary]

JJA could start with the Rod Cross paper linked by hitter:

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/PUBLICATIONS/44.BatSwing.pdf

The problem with this paper is that the guy isn't modeling a high-level baseball or fast pitch swing. That is made obvious by this line...

As the bat speed increases, both arms straighten, the arc radius increases, and the bat swings to be approximately in line with each arm at the instant the bat collides with the ball.

This is standard Power V at the Point Of Contact garbage that reveals the author's level of knowledge (which isn't great).

Torque may in fact have been applied during THIS swing, but it's clearly not a high-level swing.

 

[Chris O'Leary]

JJA could start with the Rod Cross paper linked by hitter:

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/PUBLICATIONS/44.BatSwing.pdff control/adjustment is in the feel of the hands as resistance is applied.

Tom,

Did you even read the paper?

I ask because it refutes, rather than supports, your point. It looks like the author started out with your notion that handle torque is the primary force, but the results showed the opposite.

Here's the money quote...

The large negative couple applied late in the swing is not only counterintuitive, but appears to be inconsistent with the action of the arms shown in Fig. 7. From the direction of motion of the arms during the interval 300–380 ms in Fig. 7, it appears that the left forearm is pulling on the handle and the right forearm is pushing, as if the batter is deliberately attempting to increase the angular velocity of the bat. However, this interpretation is not consistent with the experimental data. The largest torque component on the bat is due to the centripetal force. By itself, that torque component would cause the bat to rotate much more rapidly than it actually does, with the result that the bat would rotate through an excessive angle by the time it arrives at the impact point. If the bat were allowed to rotate at such a high speed, the handle would push firmly on the batter’s left hand and tend to pull out of his right hand. The reaction force exerted by the batter is such that the left hand pushes on the handle and the right hand pulls on the handle, thereby generating the large negative couple that restricts the total torque on the bat to a value less than 6 Nm throughout the swing.

The signs of the forces were the opposite of what the author expected them to be.

 

[tom.guerry]

try to focus on the EARLY part of the swing where the bat is started on a rearward arc requiring a positive couple, that is where the money is. as the swing proceeds, there is less and less you can do to change things.

maybe JJA can help you out here.

and look at the Nyman model.

See Mankin:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/output/14322.html

Jack Mankin's comment:

Hi All

The mechanics used at initiation is by far the most important part of the swing. How the batter develops energy for the swing and the direction of the forces he applies to the bat at this point will determine the quality of his mechanics for the balance of the swing.

"A ballistic motion, once initiated, produces trajectories that can only be efficiently changed at its margins."

Although the above bio-mechanical principle may appear complicated, once grasped, it makes understanding and teaching the mechanics of the baseball swing far more clear. The principle basically means the batter does not have to remember when to "pop his hips," "squeeze the trigger," or any of other batting mechanical principles.

Once the batter has properly initiated his swing with the correct forces, the rhythm of his ensuing mechanics are on autopilot. From his launch position to follow-through, what to do with his front toe, hips, hands, and so on, need never enter the batter's mind. Forces he applied at the start of the swing determined the sequence of the following mechanics. Now, his total concentration is on timing and getting the plane of the swing inline with the path of the ball.

When a batter initiates the swing with incorrect forces, the balance of the swing will be an exercise in compensation. The reaction of the bat to an improperly initiated swing is what causes that tense, jerky appearance.

 

[ssarge]

Did you even read the paper?

I ask because it refutes, rather than supports, your point. It looks like the author started out with your notion that handle torque is the primary force, but the results showed the opposite.

Here's the money quote...

The large negative couple applied late in the swing is not only counterintuitive, but appears to be inconsistent with the action of the arms shown in Fig. 7. From the direction of motion of the arms during the interval 300–380 ms in Fig. 7, it appears that the left forearm is pulling on the handle and the right forearm is pushing, as if the batter is deliberately attempting to increase the angular velocity of the bat. However, this interpretation is not consistent with the experimental data. The largest torque component on the bat is due to the centripetal force. By itself, that torque component would cause the bat to rotate much more rapidly than it actually does, with the result that the bat would rotate through an excessive angle by the time it arrives at the impact point. If the bat were allowed to rotate at such a high speed, the handle would push firmly on the batter’s left hand and tend to pull out of his right hand. The reaction force exerted by the batter is such that the left hand pushes on the handle and the right hand pulls on the handle, thereby generating the large negative couple that restricts the total torque on the bat to a value less than 6 Nm throughout the swing.

The signs of the forces were the opposite of what the author expected them to be.

Chris:

I believe you have correctly summarized the author's position. Which does in fact dovetail with the conclusions of Adair, among others. And Nyman's simulations as well, which as you know, he just relinked on the double pendulum thread at BBF. Really valuable stuff.

Best regards,

Scott

 

[Hitter]

Tom please indulge me for a moment...Three guys were in a hot air balloon and the sun was starting to go down and they all looked at each other and said does anyone know where we are exactly? They agreed they were lost and one of them said there is a golf course ahead so lets get the balloon closer to the ground and we can ask someone where we are. Finally they saw four golfers on a green and lowered the balloon and yelled down to the golfers, "Could you help use we are lost, where exactly are we?" The four golfers huddled and one finally spoke up and responded, "You are on the 17 green!" One of the guys in the balloon remarked they must be engineers and the other two said why would you say that? And he responded, "They told us exactly what we asked them and the information is totally useless!"

Tom I have worked with college coaches, former MLB players, NPF coaches and players, instructed hitting at the ISF level for a couple years and have shared ideas, concepts, drills, how to explain what we teach and how to teach. I have worked with Crystl since 2002 and never once in meeting with any of these people have they tried to talk over my head in trying to make a point or explain how or why they do what they do or teach it. Most of the coaches and parents we work with would be lost trying to understand what and how you present your data.

I would never try to speak for anyone else however as an instructor, coach, teacher our kids seem to learn much faster when you can demonstrate and get them to feel it and see it! We encourage our students to take notes, draw out diagrams, take pictures and keep that note book in their bat bag. Some learn by listening, some by doing, some by taking notes and we never know who they are so we try to do all the above when communicating with them. Then we have our LD kids and we have parents call and make a special request for us to work with their kid based on what and how we teach. I have one come 7 hours away because the OTHER coach gets frustrated with her because she can not seem to get it. If what people PM me is correct and you are a medical doctor, you and I would not get along very long. All my doctors and I are on a first name basis as well as their nurses and staff. My wife is also an RN so there is a side of me that has a respect for the medical community in general.

One thing for sure they never try to talk over my head when it comes to explaining something to me and they never hesitate to call one of the other doctors to get a second opinion or additional data and I respect them for that. If you treat your patients the way you do others that try to share information and gain more knowledge on hitting your client base must be small or you may be subsidized by working in a clinic because you may not have a private practice because of how you handle your patients in my opinion.

Step back for a moment and as they told me at cardiac rehab, smell the roses and blow out the candles and get a couple of deep breathes. Take two Advil and call me in the morning if you do not feel better....that will be $25 dollars please, cash or credit cards accepted, no checks!

A final thought on radial deviation...someone wrote yesterday as the bat was passing the shoulder during bat lag it (the top hand would kind of look like a waiter carrying a tray if they had their hand opened) pretty clever way to describe I thought!

 

[ssarge]

Howard,

I admire your work with LD kids very much. What a labor of love - I think you are to be highly commended for this.

I have a friend from high school. Played ball with him - he was much better than me - and he was drafted in the 6th or 7th round out of HS. He is a small guy - 5' 5" or so (no wonder he was a 2B!) - and realized even at a young age he would never make it to the bigs with that stature. So he went the scholarship route instead. Managed to redshirt for a year, and came out with a fully funded masters in education. He now is the Special Ed department head at a local HS (and coach of the baseball team, which has done well in NorCal baseball, winning the section once and competing most years).

VERY athletic guy. His daughter is a former hitting student who is now playing basketball AND softball in college.

He's a wise-cracking, poke gentle fun kind of a guy, and believes the secret to his considerable success in special ed is that he treats the kids exactly the same as he treats others. Wise cracking, poke fun, etc. I don't think that would work for everyone as an approach. It seems to work for him, because that is who he is, and he is the same guy with everyone. Watching him teach, as I have had the opportunity to do, it is amazing to see his success and how he is revered by some very special kids. I would not have predicted it, but I have seen it.

All that to ask this:

Is your GENERAL approach with LD kids similar to your approach with everyone else? Do you find that language needs to be changed? Is that unique to LD kids? It seems to me there may be much to be learned here which is applicable across the teaching spectrum.

Finally, have you ever worked with the Challenger program in LL? It is a marvelous thing. As I have gradually had the opportunity to work with older kids playing at higher levels, I've kind of lost touch with LL. But that Challenger program is something else. There are LD kids participating for sure, but also physically-challenged kids participating as well. Up to and including near-quadriplegics. As I wrote on another site recently, when you have seen your son come alongside a kid in a wheelchair, help him hold the bat to swing it and make contact with a ball on a Tee, then push a beaming, joyful, beaming kid to 1B, it changes your perspective on a lot of things.

Absolute best regards,

Scott

 

[tom.guerry]

hitter-
let me know what you think is over your head and I am happy to rephrase it.

this can be a problem when discussing things where expertise is developed in other areas where different terminology is used such as golf or physics or biomechanics/etc.

this is necessary because very nonintuitive and complex things are going on which are hard to describe simply and yet occur in an integrated fahion in the swing.

so if Rod Cross, for example points out that all swings require an early positive couple, that just means that you need to have a force turning the handle/resisting the bat going the other way when the first pendulum of a 2 pendulum set up starts.

as a 2 pendulum passive swing proceeds, see model you can play around with here:

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~plynch/SwingingSpring/doublependulum.html

the second pendulum overtakes the first and the first pendulum reactively turns back which is not seen in the Swing Cross anayzes which means there must be a negative couple at the end of the swing.

The fact that Cross's article studies the woodbat swing of an Aussie college baseball player still makes the study a good one, because ALL swings in a setting of limited reaction time have to eliminate drag by preventing inertia of the bat as the swing begins.

what is different about various patterns is HOW THIS FORCE PRODUCTION IS GENERATED in golf v fp and bb.

humans are born with a tendency to organize skills into certain patterns, many aspects of which should NOT be mixed.

In the case of the MLB pattern, it can either be explained in terms of what you have to do OR as what you should not do or both.

Mankin has demonstrated the importance of the rearward arc.

The best way I know of to explain the detail is in the arm action which includes EXternal rotation of back arm synched with INternal rotation of the lead arm, THEN back forearm supination and lead forearm pronation.

Sounds complex, but this is the essence of if you can throw you can hit as well described by Hodge.

This descriptive approach based on Hodge's info on the overhand throw which is excellent in both explaining how to teach a high level throw and one that reduces stress/injury. Hodge as a post PHD worked rehabbing patients for Dr Job including Dodgers among others. he was also very succesful litte league coach.

have you seen his BIOMECHANICBASEBALL info ?

Another way to explain how the "positive couple" is applied could be to use cues like THT or "swivel".

Another way is to say you have to apply this force to resist inertia/drag AND you must avoid disconnection AND you must avoid barrel dumping AND you must avoid prematurely unhinging the lead wrist.

Hitter, I am sure you can understand all of this except perhaps for some of the "internet terminology" which has grown up in discussions over the years that many here are familiar with, but are new to you because you just started reading.

So let me know what sees over your head and how you think it can be explained more simply for an audience with very variable degrees of experience.

We should also avoid the soft bigotry of low expectations as fearless leader used to say.

Thanks.

 

[ssarge]

Howard:

One last question, if you have time.

I know you have coached at the international level, and I believe worked with world-class athletes where you did not necessarily have a single language in common.

How did this add to the challenge of communicating hitting concepts? Did you use an interpretor? Demonstrate personally with more frequency? Something else? Again, this is the kind of extreme example of the challenges of coach / student communication that I believe you were able to overcome (the team you were with improved their hitting). So I think there is much to learn here.

Thanks, and best regards,

Scott