When to introduce next pitch?

[CoachFP]

There have been multiple Hall of Fame MLB Pitchers who used those type of strategies to make a good career. This would be called deception. Two that come to my mind immediately would be Luis Tiant and Juan Marichal. There are many others. IMHO, the name of the game is to get outs. How that happens does not matter.

Bill

You are right, getting outs is the key. You named two very good pitchers that did some extra things. They were in the minority by a long shot. Teaching kids how to pitch and showing them all kinds of "tricks" is doing a disservice to them, when we all know the best generally don't do it.

 

[drc9805]

By the second year of 10U or first year of 12U you hear a lot of dad's tell you their daughter has five or six pitches and you even have coaches that are only looking for girls with at least 3 to 4 pitches. I've watched some of these girls and although they may know the grip...the pitch has no movement and is almost never thrown for a strike.

 

[halskinner]

You are right, getting outs is the key. You named two very good pitchers that did some extra things. They were in the minority by a long shot. Teaching kids how to pitch and showing them all kinds of "tricks" is doing a disservice to them, when we all know the best generally don't do it.

It's been 5 or 6 years ago but, I went to a 14u (If I recall correctly) tourney to root for my favorite player and her team. They were what most considered to be the strongest hitting and winningest team from this area. I did not have any students of mine pitching for this team. The catcher is the daughter of my lifelong friend.

They played one game against a decent team from the Bay Area. They struck out, one after another, for 3 innings. THEN I noticed something in the pitcher's motions. I watched for 2 batters and then I realized what was standing out to me. SHE WAS USING MY OWN TACTICS and, she was using them so subtly that even I did not spot my own tactics until the game was half over.

My friends kid's team got 1 hit (a single) that game and only made contact with the ball 3 times. They lost badly.

I introduced myself to the other pitcher's Dad after the game and was introduced to his daughter. They had bought my book a few months prior and she had practiced a few of them religiously.

Now, I put it to you; If a pitcher can practice my tactics and get so smooth and deceptive with them that even 'I' could not spot them for half a game, how would you spot them at all if a pitcher WAS using them.

You have no idea how many pitchers are out there using these 'Shenanigans' and defeating most of the batters they face and winning most of their games.

Do you think itis even possible that some of these young and older pitchers are using my tactics all over. If you do not know what to look for, how can you tell?

"when we all know the best generally don't do it" Really. Did you spot Ueno using them at all in the last Olympics???? YOU would not be able to tell because YOU do not know what to look for to spot them.

 

[CoachFP]

Oh, I get it Hal. Your tricks are so good that even you don't know they are being used. Now that is funny. So all of the great ones could be using your tricks, therefore making them great, and nobody would even notice it? These are some shenanigans. I will tell you this, if you are not already, you should be a salesman.

 

[halskinner]

Oh, I get it Hal. Your tricks are so good that even you don't know they are being used. Now that is funny. So all of the great ones could be using your tricks, therefore making them great, and nobody would even notice it? These are some shenanigans. I will tell you this, if you are not already, you should be a salesman.

Not what I am saying at all and you know that. What I am saying is that a pitcher can pratice these things and do them so subtley that even 'I' have a hard time spotting them. Someone who is not familiar with them WILL NOT spot them, if they are practiced at it.

 

[DonnieS]

By the second year of 10U or first year of 12U you hear a lot of dad's tell you their daughter has five or six pitches and you even have coaches that are only looking for girls with at least 3 to 4 pitches. I've watched some of these girls and although they may know the grip...the pitch has no movement and is almost never thrown for a strike.

No kidding - a big name team was recruiting my kid when she was 12 or so, the big shot coach asked what pitches she had, we told her, she could move a fast ball whereever you want, a rise, and a changeup. She said 'No drop - ' Nope - she said, I cant use a 12u without a drop, that just doesnt work. Karma kicks in and we face them in a big tournament - it was so nice to see the big shot coach leaving, cussing like a sailer.

I too have had kids come to me, the dad says 'she has 7 pitches, you have to at the level of LL that we played '. I say 'wow - lets see them' - she threw 6 pitches - all with different names - that did the same thing in a game, get hammered.

Where we live and play, having above average speed, and an excellent changeup, will win most tournaments, in 12u and under, UNTIL you get to nationals and you face socal teams. Then you better have a lot of balls.

 

[Bill Bollinger]

Oh, I get it Hal. Your tricks are so good that even you don't know they are being used. Now that is funny. So all of the great ones could be using your tricks, therefore making them great, and nobody would even notice it? These are some shenanigans. I will tell you this, if you are not already, you should be a salesman.

I am going to defend Hal on this. Here is my reasoning:

Disclaimer: I am NOT a FP Pitching expert, but have had many years of playing and coaching experience in BB so my views may be clouded by that, but here goes.

1. In BB there are many "mini-games" going on all of the time that involve the pitcher. The game with the batter, the umpire, any baserunners and potentially the other team. I believe how the pitcher handles those situations can and most times will be one of the primary reasons for his success (Mentally). Yes, mechanics and brute force or sheer movement matters too, but being a winning pitcher will more often than not be how he can win those mini-games (mental games) with his competitors.

2. Deception and timing is key. When in the stretch, BB pitchers will vary their routine. They may hold the ball longer, they may slightly adjust their stretch position, they may stride differently or shorter or taller etc... I dont' want to speak for Hal, but I believe some of his advice is similar to this concept. The goal is to get the pitchers to THINK. Yes, it is good to focus completely about your mechanics and teach them that you can fight through anything if you can either blow the ball by them or make it move so they can't hit it. But at the end of the day, being a pitcher and ultimately being a great pitcher involves more than just being able to throw the ball.

I don't know the facts on this, but I am sure there are more and more girls pitching 60/70+ MPH every year. You are seeing the same thing in baseball. However, we each have those pitchers who we would all call "Gamers" or "Winner" or whatever. What makes those pitchers special? It cannot just be their "stuff". Yes, for some games their stuff can be so dominating it doesn't matter. Yes, it can even last over a season or age bracket, but at some point in time, their "stuff" will not matter. For ME... I will take "Winners" or "Gamers" on my pitching staff everyday of the week versus a kid who has great stuff but can't win consistently. Why is that? I think it is those little things like Hal describes. We can debate if his tactics are the way you/I would do it, but I think he is in the right ball park and ultimately to get the girl to be a pitcher NOT a thrower.

Now having the girl think she needs to strike out each and every batter (Hal) is another topic LOL!

Bill

 

[halskinner]

"Now having the girl think she needs to strike out each and every batter (Hal) is another topic LOL!"

Bill, I think I saw on a different thread something about goals and expectations for a pitcher.

Getting a college scholarship, I think that is a good goal to set.

Making the US National team, I think that is another goal, even higher than the scholarship.

Winning the nationals, yet another goal, maybe ranked about like the scholarship.

Throwing a perfect game, another lofty goal.

Striking out every batter, another goal to attain, possibly easier than the others listed.

EXPECTATIONS; You must realize and expect that NONE of those goals might happen in your lifetime. However, if you do not set very high goals for yourself (ones you know you might NEVER achieve) you will reach some other goal not as high and become complacant. I have seen that happen too.

A pitcher can throw really hard for for their league and dominate. They and their parents think she is great. Then, they get on a travel ball team and get pounded. All of that false hope and expectations go down the toilet, along with the pitcher's confidence level.

Having a goal of striking out every batter is a good goal, one that they might NEVER reach in athat pitcher's career. But, it CAN AND DOES HAPPEN! If that is your goal and you pitch a game and only strike out 10, now you have just set a 2nd mark, to throw the next game and strike out 11 or more. You also have great incentive to continue to work very hard to get better and continue trying your absolute best to come even closer to the original goal.

You go out and try to strike every batter out. In that effort, more than likely, you will throw a good game and get several strikeouts. If you walk one, hit one or they get on base however, you forget about that batter and move on to the next and try and strike THIS one out.

I cannot count how many young students I worked with that said they wanted to grow up and be like Lisa or Michelle, pitch for the Olympic team. Once they said that, that opened the door for me and for many other comments to prod them toward that goal, I NEVER EVER let them forget they made that statement to me.

I could have alot of fun with it too. If one of my students let fly one that was WAY off the mark,, "OK. Refresh my memory. Was that Lisa's or Michelle's dropball you just threw?".

Or, when a session was over, "OK. When you make the Olympic team don't forget, you gotta send an autographed picture to Ole Coach Hal".

Get them to set two goals; one lofty and almost unachieveable and the other, very reachable. Do that and you will be making a winner!

 

[Bill Bollinger]

I agree Hal and have thrown quite a few of those type of games myself (Quite a few of the perfect game - all strike out types)(Back before a hip replacement - bad arm.. you get the drill). However, if I would have done it all over again, I would have learned earlier how to be a pitcher versus thrower. My only concern with that type of goal is it creates a little bit of a caveman behavior when on the mound, when at the end of the day the goal is to get outs. I am just concerned for ME as a coach going completely down that path. I understand the mindset and believe it adds value, but it is like racing. You MUST first finish the race to finish first. You do NOT need to lead every lap and be the fastest car on the track every race to win the race. If you raced liked that, you will dominate a few races, but over time you will wreck more often, burn up your car and ultimately not be quite as effective. Keep in mind, I believe in what you say, but I believe it has to be balanced to be a great pitcher over time... NOT a great pitcher over a few games or season.

P.S. I believe in setting goals... but to ME, the #1 goal of a pitcher is to follow the Tiger Woods principle. You MUST be in contention on Sunday to have a chance of winning. Meaning, your only goal is to put your team in its best position to win. The ultimate goal is winning as a team and as a teammate your job is to get outs. Strikeouts are great, but I can give you some good reasons why over time, it isn't the best thing.

Example: How can striving for strikeouts before an out be a bad thing for a pitcher in a tournament situation?

Answer: Most ever batter will "catch up" to a pitcher given enough at bats and seen balls. A strikeout will on average take more pitches to achieve and therefore on average and over an extended period of time mean as a tournament progresses, a batter will be more likely to get on base in games that mean more. Side Note: For one game - you would have a valid point, but over a series of games or season, I really believe it could be debated. Another example would be... Who was a better pitcher? Greg Maddux or Nolan Ryan?

Bill

 

[CoachFP]

I agree Hal and have thrown quite a few of those type of games myself (Quite a few of the perfect game - all strike out types)(Back before a hip replacement - bad arm.. you get the drill). However, if I would have done it all over again, I would have learned earlier how to be a pitcher versus thrower. My only concern with that type of goal is it creates a little bit of a caveman behavior when on the mound, when at the end of the day the goal is to get outs. I am just concerned for ME as a coach going completely down that path. I understand the mindset and believe it adds value, but it is like racing. You MUST first finish the race to finish first. You do NOT need to lead every lap and be the fastest car on the track every race to win the race. If you raced liked that, you will dominate a few races, but over time you will wreck more often, burn up your car and ultimately not be quite as effective. Keep in mind, I believe in what you say, but I believe it has to be balanced to be a great pitcher over time... NOT a great pitcher over a few games or season.

P.S. I believe in setting goals... but to ME, the #1 goal of a pitcher is to follow the Tiger Woods principle. You MUST be in contention on Sunday to have a chance of winning. Meaning, your only goal is to put your team in its best position to win. The ultimate goal is winning as a team and as a teammate your job is to get outs. Strikeouts are great, but I can give you some good reasons why over time, it isn't the best thing.

Example: How can striving for strikeouts before an out be a bad thing for a pitcher in a tournament situation?

Answer: Most ever batter will "catch up" to a pitcher given enough at bats and seen balls. A strikeout will on average take more pitches to achieve and therefore on average and over an extended period of time mean as a tournament progresses, a batter will be more likely to get on base in games that mean more. Side Note: For one game - you would have a valid point, but over a series of games or season, I really believe it could be debated. Another example would be... Who was a better pitcher? Greg Maddux or Nolan Ryan?

Bill

Bill, you can't debate this with Hal. The "strikeout every batter" mantra is his. What do his students do when they don't strike out a batter? Did they fail? He doesn't address this. Intentionally walking a batter is out of the question also. Why, because the pitcher should be able to strike her out. Setting goals are great, but as anyone in the business world will tell you, setting unrealistic goals is a formula for disaster. But the legendary Hal (that's what he refers to himself as) will tell you otherwise.