This is fantastic, Ken!
Working on 12-6 spin. Any drills?
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This is fantastic, Ken!
Chris Delorit
Member
Ray,
You correct on one point in your reply, that's RPS.
Yes, absolutely throwing a drop within a degree of variation is just fine. 12-6, 11-5, 1-7... they'll all work perfectly. Remember, every pitch can become predictable and she should try to move her pitches with variation around those plane changes.
Monica Abbott could rely on gas, and gas alone to get by most collegiate hitters. Especially when she was a more youthful player. A tall, imposing figure, highly active delivery, long stride and 70's ... cruise control without having to rely fully on an arsenal.
Sure, you can show me 20 college kids with a bullet spin. Then, I'll show you 40. riseball one-up's it to 60 and then Billy drops by to namedrop another 80. Back your point, that's 20 scholarship kids that have real pitching skill development needs.
You've posted a .07 video clip of an overhand curveball. Would you be interested in elaborating on the comparable or non-comparable physics between it and the underhand bullet ball?
Remember, from a batter's perspective ... the bullet spin is always a bullet spin within the ball path. It arrives with it's own uniquely identifiable characteristics regardless of any seam rearrangement in a pitcher's grip.
Chris
Chris Delorit
Member
java,
Although I don't speak Milli Vanilli ... be it Priest or Scorps, then we're talking on the same wave length. Yikes!
While 12-6 is the template, to be productive, it doesn't have to be an absolute. In fact, missing the perfect rotation axis is common. As the level advances, it should realistically occur less frequently. Absolutely, changing plane to avoid the bat path is the goal, a degree of variation in spin axis (as well as taking something off or adding something to) is a very good approach to experimentation with developing important variables with the drop.
Just as the clock positions of 3,6,9 and 12 are used alot in explanation, the reality is that most of the action occurs between the lines. So, if we descibe the rise, curve and screwball in comparable terms, absolute movement should be 6-12, 3-9 and 9-3. To expect those results as an absolute would be disingenuous.
The drop ball by itself is only marginally better than any other "fastball". Enter location, speed variation and break variation and the pitcher is now learning how to exponentially change the dynamic of her position where she can position herself in better position to control the outcome of the AB.
From a hitting perspective, a pitcher with predictable movement is generally more preferrable that one without. Where I can better predict the bat barrel path to a 12-6, barrel connection at 11-5, 1-7 or 12:30-6:30 presents a greater chance of miscalculation by adding a level of break to the vertical movement. By adding variances in speed and location on that same pitch, there's potential to become a dynamic weapon.
The next clinic we participate in together, swing by at coffee break.
Chris
Although I don't speak Milli Vanilli ... be it Priest or Scorps, then we're talking on the same wave length. Yikes!
While 12-6 is the template, to be productive, it doesn't have to be an absolute. In fact, missing the perfect rotation axis is common. As the level advances, it should realistically occur less frequently. Absolutely, changing plane to avoid the bat path is the goal, a degree of variation in spin axis (as well as taking something off or adding something to) is a very good approach to experimentation with developing important variables with the drop.
Just as the clock positions of 3,6,9 and 12 are used alot in explanation, the reality is that most of the action occurs between the lines. So, if we descibe the rise, curve and screwball in comparable terms, absolute movement should be 6-12, 3-9 and 9-3. To expect those results as an absolute would be disingenuous.
The drop ball by itself is only marginally better than any other "fastball". Enter location, speed variation and break variation and the pitcher is now learning how to exponentially change the dynamic of her position where she can position herself in better position to control the outcome of the AB.
From a hitting perspective, a pitcher with predictable movement is generally more preferrable that one without. Where I can better predict the bat barrel path to a 12-6, barrel connection at 11-5, 1-7 or 12:30-6:30 presents a greater chance of miscalculation by adding a level of break to the vertical movement. By adding variances in speed and location on that same pitch, there's potential to become a dynamic weapon.
The next clinic we participate in together, swing by at coffee break.
Chris
javasource
6-4-3 = 2
java,
Although I don't speak Milli Vanilli ... be it Priest or Scorps, then we're talking on the same wave length. Yikes!
Herein lies the issue, Chris. Something special happened that night. Bill knows what I'm talking about... even thought we can't put our finger on it. Perhaps their "pitch" was off... setting a path for me and Bill to correct. LOL
Read my responses as nothing more than my opinion - totally into talking about these things in a non-offensive way.
You're right... it doesn't have to be. But, for me it is. More on why below.
No doubt. But what are we doing as pitching coaches to ensure this? The historic approach is to do it thousands of times, and limit the frequency of "miss"... but what safeguard are in place for them to correct in game... better yet... how do they even know the axis they threw in a game was correct or not?
My approach is to teach them to read the spin on the ball in practice and in games. No exceptions. In fact, I'll go to games and expect them to use their finger between pitches to communicate the axis they threw. As a result, they know exactly how to correct it (see previous post about spin axis determination). This way, they can learn from the games... rather than just go out there and "throw it"... and... I get many, many, many fewer calls when they get to college. (meaning, I've prepared them adequately... something I realized about 5 years ago I desperately needed to improve on as a coach).
Although I would agree that at a young age, there is something to be said about being unpredictable in your location... I would argue that this is not very attractive to coaches as they get older... and definitely not in situations that really demand command.
Which is what we get paid to help lessen, IMO.
But how do you TEACH this, Chris? I teach my kids awareness... but I also teach them the "tunnel" concept at an early age... giving them years to practice this. I guess I just don't believe in unconscious variables... I want them aware of... and masters of every variable they game with. Just my approach, that's all...
IMO, these aren't apples to apples... (and I've never seen a screw axis, have you?)
I don't hold the rise in comparable terms, in any way shape or form. I know that if a kid throws a perfect rise axis (which I have kids that can), she is sacrificing oodles of speed... it's a fact that we need to come to terms with... and start to experiment at what degree we are comfortable 'sacrificing'. Knowing that speed perception is a powerful thing, we DIAL that axis in so that the rise is a weapon in and off itself.
This reminds me of a former pitcher my associate worked with. Came out of HS throwing a 66mph drop and a BEAUTIFUL 58 mph rise. Couple pitches away from a national title her freshman season, and consensus Gatorade player of the year. The next year... the thought from her coaches was: "Hey, if she can throw a drop that's 66... why not the rise?" Guess what happened to the rise? Axis died, and speed was no longer a weapon... IMO, this really hurt what could've been one of... if not the greatest... pitcher to play the female game.
Point being, knowing how to balance a rising axis with speed that compliments your other weapons is a skill onto itself... and there is no golden rule, the pitcher is too unique of a subject for that... and it requires a truly individual approach.
BUT... 45-degrees of yaw... is NOTHING. It's not a rise, nor is it a bullet. It's nothing. 44... it starts to becomes a rise... 46, a bullet. Knowing this is only possible if you SEE IT, and train athletes to SEE IT. How far you take that axis in the rise direction requires that you really put some thought into perceptive velocity, command, and complementary pitches.
HOWEVER... the drop can be delivered as a fast(er) pitch. Not the fastest, again.. this is a matter of physics... but... force can be delivered into the back of the ball. AND... Gravity is working with us. AND... perfect axis involves little sacrifice in speed. As such... I expect 100% axis, 100% of the time... because I not only need them to move the ball, but learn to command their location... something spin axis "variables" do not allow for.
Did you know that the spot difference between a drop and rise thrown with all the same variables (20 rps, 65 mph, 6-degree launch angle) is over 2 feet? What lies in the middle? (bullet) A bat is only 2.25 inches, Chris... and as the magnus effect is an incredibly stable effect (given identical conditions), we can guesstimate that for every 7 to 8-degrees of gyro, we lose 2 inches of movement... meaning... if we raise the standard of how our girls can throw this ball, they can move it OFF OF THE BAT... but only if we train them to see it... and adjust it on the fly. We can also teach them to master their spot... and let's face it, a hanging drop is not a pretty thing (to the pitcher). Involves a sharp turn of the head and the patience necessary to wait for the girls to run all the bases...
I do realize that I'm getting a tad geeky here... and that it probably sounds like wizard stuff... but observe:
Neither is a perfect axis... but look at what 5-degrees of gyro does to the finish. (BTW... these were same speed, same launch, same distance... took me forever to get two to compare...)
When you throw a perfect drop... things get exciting (here's an LSU commit):
Umm... the first sentence... I totally disagree with... BUT with your allowance of all the degrees of variation... I guess that makes sense.
But... then you sorta support my thoughts in the next sentence... maybe we're not too far off. I measure speed in two ways... mph & perceptive, "break" via spin (when comparing how much), and SPOT... as a byproduct of the first two. Like... SPEED + SPIN = SPOT. I don't have my kids throw to targets 43-feet away, I have them throw to tunnels 20-30 feet away... letting the speed and spin determine the location. I assume this is not how you do it... and that's ok.
This is a bold statement. I do know you played, so I get/appreciate your perspective. However, this is very conditional. What if... I threw a fb, rise, drop, change, and curve... through the same spot in space 10 feet in front of the batter, but each of them ended in a different spot and most at a different time? How would a batter fare there? I know the answer, but I hope you get my point. In that scenario... I've thrown possibly 8-9 variables at you... and given you very little time to react.
Absolutely, man. I truly appreciate what you do, and respect how you do it. Thanks for being a vital member of this board/community.
~JS
I hope I'm not arguing with a three season guy...
High speed slow motion video is shreddng what people think they know about ball movement, and especially about bullet spin pitches. (I was one of the shreddees a few years ago...)
Slow motion videos show that the MLB slider is a bullet spin pitch. Sliders work well against 25YOA MLB batters getting paid millions to hit a ball. So, a slider should be just as effective against a 20YOA business major and part-time softball player at NIU.
An MLB curveball is what is referred to in softball as a dropball. The ball in the video does not have anything close to 12-6 rotation. So, it is not an MLB curveball. It is an MLB slider.
Geez...no one ever asks to opine on physics. I get in the weeds pretty fast. the main difference is that the baseball is thrown with a higher initial velocity than a softball. It has also has a different release angle. The flight angle of a softball at the plate is less than that of a baseball. None of that is particularly interesting.
From a purely physics point of view, a bullet spin pitch will go straighter than other pitches. People automatically assume that bullet spin pitches are easier to hit. But, MLB sliders are proving otherwise.
The effectiveness of any pitch is how the pitch is used in combination with other pitches. Pitchers are not awarded points for how much a drop ball or a rise breaks. Pitchers are famous for getting people out.
At the next CWS, turn down the volume and watch the slow motion videos of the pitches. It turns out only a few pitchers at the CWS throw drops and rises.
Anyway, here is a video of Lauren Hagar. Just to refresh your memory, she recieved the USA Softball National Collegiate Player of the Year and Women's College World Series Most Outstanding Player. She won the Honda Sports Award for Softball, SEC Female Athlete of the Year and SEC Pitcher of the Year.
Notice that all the pitches classified as "riseballs" or "screwballs" are bullet spin pitches.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rZzSBbFyvRk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
High speed slow motion video is shreddng what people think they know about ball movement, and especially about bullet spin pitches. (I was one of the shreddees a few years ago...)
Slow motion videos show that the MLB slider is a bullet spin pitch. Sliders work well against 25YOA MLB batters getting paid millions to hit a ball. So, a slider should be just as effective against a 20YOA business major and part-time softball player at NIU.
An MLB curveball is what is referred to in softball as a dropball. The ball in the video does not have anything close to 12-6 rotation. So, it is not an MLB curveball. It is an MLB slider.
Geez...no one ever asks to opine on physics. I get in the weeds pretty fast. the main difference is that the baseball is thrown with a higher initial velocity than a softball. It has also has a different release angle. The flight angle of a softball at the plate is less than that of a baseball. None of that is particularly interesting.
From a purely physics point of view, a bullet spin pitch will go straighter than other pitches. People automatically assume that bullet spin pitches are easier to hit. But, MLB sliders are proving otherwise.
The effectiveness of any pitch is how the pitch is used in combination with other pitches. Pitchers are not awarded points for how much a drop ball or a rise breaks. Pitchers are famous for getting people out.
At the next CWS, turn down the volume and watch the slow motion videos of the pitches. It turns out only a few pitchers at the CWS throw drops and rises.
Anyway, here is a video of Lauren Hagar. Just to refresh your memory, she recieved the USA Softball National Collegiate Player of the Year and Women's College World Series Most Outstanding Player. She won the Honda Sports Award for Softball, SEC Female Athlete of the Year and SEC Pitcher of the Year.
Notice that all the pitches classified as "riseballs" or "screwballs" are bullet spin pitches.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rZzSBbFyvRk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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Chris Delorit
Member
Mike,
You've provided alot of in-depth detail into your instruction methods.
My previous post was generalized in an attempt to keep the thread to a basic level of information. It's probably more attune to programs or kids in rural communites or communites with more challenging demographics. Most of my help is provided voluntary basis within these types of situations, as it has to be. In this part of the upper Midwest, we're just not on a softball recruiting map. That's not to say there isn't competitive softball or talented players, but the kids whom I've had the opportunity to work with over the years are typically 2-3 sport kids and/or their softball experience isn't expected to continue beyond high school. Kids also enjoy camping, fishing, hunting, snowmobiling and family.
My point ... the type and level of instruction is often a balancing act with parents and kids. So, the level of expectation to the template of perfection often times has to be placed in perspective as to not lose kids.
Would I enjoy utilizing more of my background in opportunities working the blueprint with LSU-type talent and commitment, absolutely.
Now, you did ask me a question about various pitches thrown to the same location at 33 feet, that ended in a different spot with various speeds ... and the associated variables with very little reaction time. As a general rule, my goal as a hitting coach is to help remove as many of those variables as possible. The goal is to create a competitive advantage and the ability to dictate the AB. Develop the ability to read spin and predict path within the first 20-30 feet. Areas we explore are awareness of the competition, pitch picking, spin ID and path via hitting drills, patience and discipline at the plate, working pitch counts, vision and focal training. Attemping to better develop the the ability to take as much of what you describe as conditional out of the equation. Alot like the pitch development process, which takes lots of time and patience. As you know, sometimes potential never does develop.
Hope this makes sense Mike.
Chris
You've provided alot of in-depth detail into your instruction methods.
My previous post was generalized in an attempt to keep the thread to a basic level of information. It's probably more attune to programs or kids in rural communites or communites with more challenging demographics. Most of my help is provided voluntary basis within these types of situations, as it has to be. In this part of the upper Midwest, we're just not on a softball recruiting map. That's not to say there isn't competitive softball or talented players, but the kids whom I've had the opportunity to work with over the years are typically 2-3 sport kids and/or their softball experience isn't expected to continue beyond high school. Kids also enjoy camping, fishing, hunting, snowmobiling and family.
My point ... the type and level of instruction is often a balancing act with parents and kids. So, the level of expectation to the template of perfection often times has to be placed in perspective as to not lose kids.
Would I enjoy utilizing more of my background in opportunities working the blueprint with LSU-type talent and commitment, absolutely.
Now, you did ask me a question about various pitches thrown to the same location at 33 feet, that ended in a different spot with various speeds ... and the associated variables with very little reaction time. As a general rule, my goal as a hitting coach is to help remove as many of those variables as possible. The goal is to create a competitive advantage and the ability to dictate the AB. Develop the ability to read spin and predict path within the first 20-30 feet. Areas we explore are awareness of the competition, pitch picking, spin ID and path via hitting drills, patience and discipline at the plate, working pitch counts, vision and focal training. Attemping to better develop the the ability to take as much of what you describe as conditional out of the equation. Alot like the pitch development process, which takes lots of time and patience. As you know, sometimes potential never does develop.
Hope this makes sense Mike.
Chris
Chris - I absolutely value your input, talent and perspective. While I'm pretty sure I understand what you are trying to say with the above statement I also have to say that it carries with it the possible implication that kids elsewhere DON'T enjoy those things, play multiple sports or face challenges. I'm sure simply an over generalization on your part. Kids in other parts of the country face adversity, hardships, play multiple sports, do well academically and enjoy well rounded lives outside of softball while still working towards a higher standard. They need to have the bar set high and know what is expected at those higher levels. That surely isn't for everyone but my belief is they should at least be aware of what their peers are working on. Again Chris, I'm sure that you know all this and it was probably not necessary for me to go on a rant about it. Something about the current attitude and mood in America these days that..... I'll save that discussion for when we can have a beer together while fishing at a decent campsite. ;-)
“Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.” ― Norman Vincent Peale
Better?
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javasource
6-4-3 = 2
You lost me here, friend. In my opinion... and it's totally just that... it's the basics (lack of attention to detail) that allows for things like H/E, wrist snaps, chair drills, and just a plethora of bad habits to be born.
I'll always be "over the top" with this stuff... must be some level of non-diagnosed OCD... BUT...
When we better understand this stuff... the corrections, the practice methods, and the things we have these kids work on... ALWAYS involve doing LESS than they were previously. I tell my kids they aren't starting over... not because it's what they want to hear... but because I believe it. I will show them their expression of pitching, and show them an easier way.
I often tell them this: Pitching is not like painting. In painting you start fresh with a blank canvas... and add layer upon layer of paint until you develop a masterpiece. IMO... this is the approach other coaches take. Instead, I tell them it's more like sculpting. We start with a big chunk of clay and REMOVE unnecessary pieces until we find the masterpiece.
Think about that, Chris... look at every poor aspect in pitching coaching/drills that are out there... they are simply add-on movements... rather than a refined simple movement. Underneath all that crazy crap coaches have these players doing... is sheer simplicity. But it involves an active mind that can see through that junk... not as easy as simply saying K.I.S.S.
Building a better player involves trust... easily the most important recipe... and when kids come to us... the easiest way to build trust (IMO) is to present yourself as an expert via fact, understanding, and deliver a personalized routine for each athlete. If you tell them WHY... and it makes sense... you are building trust. Remembering their name is a good idea, too. LOL
BUT... dumbing this stuff down to kids, parents, and coaches... is insulting... to them. I tell kids the very first time we meet that I'm going to speak to them like they are an adult, that I'm a geek that uses geeky words... and that I expect them to ask questions when I confuse them. And you know what... they do. And because I do this... I knock the trust barrier down immediately... as they know I know my stuff... and they are willing to get to work... because there is no doubt in their mind WHY I'm asking them to do whatever it is I'm asking of them.
Dude... I live in Alfred, NY. Look that up sometime. My neighbors are cows. The average income is below the poverty line, and let's face it... we love our four-wheelers, rifles, and fishing rods... as much as softball (I once tried to be an Amateur Bass Pro). Doesn't mean we are less... and it doesn't mean I need to speak caveman to any of them. We just communicate in click and grunts... that's all!
LOLPoint being... raise the bar. You are a kick-rear coach, I knew this the moment I met you Indiana. Your batting description is awesome... but a bit contrasting to the rest of your message.
A large percentage of the kids I work with locally won't play at the next level... and I'm ok with that... but I feel they deserve the same level of coaching, regardless... because they do.
That LSU kid... was a third-stringer on a B-Level club. She threw in the 40's when I met her, was bent over like a pretzel, stepped off the rubber, and had a smidge of I/R. Over the last 5 years, her dad kept a journal from our lessons that is unrivaled. They both became students of the game, and EARNED the opportunity that they have. Mid-60's, high-level rise, drop, and change to boot.
Lastly... you know what gifts I received from them... no joke: a really nice pocket knife, two bottles of moonshine (I still have a nervous tick because of that stuff), and a forever lasting friendship. Love these guys to death.
I respect this thought, but totally disagree. Not condemning you... just keeping it real.
You create the expectation... not the audience. By being consistent... and holding a consistent expectation of every student... as well as yourself... some kids will really surprise you, Chris. Plus, you're sending one message.
When I do group clinics... I already know the criticism... and I'm cool with it. By the end of a 3-hour session... I've lost more than half the room. But... if you look at the level of attrition that ALL coaches, all teams, and just the sport in general has... I'm going to lose them anyway. Might as well take that time and speak to those that will continue... rather than waste their time. I know this doesn't sit well with lots of people... but I don't care... cause it's not about the money with me... it's about the integrity of the sport, and every person there that is willing to commit to me.. as much as I'm committing to them.
I really hope that you read this with an open mind and with the understanding that I'm just sharing perspective/philosophy... and I totally want that cup of coffee... hope that is still on the table!!!
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Chris Delorit
Member
Good stuff mate.
Alfred, NY ... yeah, I've heard about it. Jeffrey Dahmer? Well, nah ... that was my neck of the woods. Maybe Woodstock ... but you're probably a bit young to remember that one, or at least live.
You're doing great work ... just watch out for that OCD, I've heard it's addictive.
We'll have to do another clinic sometime, tea time too. Especially enjoyed the moonshine tick.
Ta for now amigo.
Be good!
Chris
Alfred, NY ... yeah, I've heard about it. Jeffrey Dahmer? Well, nah ... that was my neck of the woods. Maybe Woodstock ... but you're probably a bit young to remember that one, or at least live.
You're doing great work ... just watch out for that OCD, I've heard it's addictive.
We'll have to do another clinic sometime, tea time too. Especially enjoyed the moonshine tick.
Ta for now amigo.
Be good!
Chris
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If bullet spin can still create movement according to where the smooth spot is orientated, can it reach the 20-30' tunnel and still break as well as 12-6, 9-3 spin? My guess is no. Can it look different to a batter who is used to seeing 12-6, 9-3 spin? Sure. But I think perhaps what Java is saying that we shouldn't lower our standards and we should try to teach kids how to get the most movement out of the pitch, otherwise, we are doing them a disservice. Or admittedly, we've given up on the kid and/or our own ability to teach it not knowing how to get them there.
