Working on 12-6 spin. Any drills?

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Sep 19, 2018
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So my daughter's first pitching coach really pushed her leading with her pinky when she pitched. I never understood why, and really still don't,

My DD's first pitching coach teaches pinky first. I believe (and I could be wrong) it is a way to reinforce keeping your hand inside the ball as long as possible to allow for IR. I am pretty sure in one of the Sticky threads, BM and Hillhouse discuss throwing a football underhand to teach the feeling of staying inside the ball as long as possible.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,133
113
Dallas, Texas
Remember that the drop doesn't need to be 12-6 to produce vertical action. Anywhere close is just fine, in that the seem orientation can produce variances in movement.

No, it is not "just fine". Against HS pitching, you can get away with bad spin on a drop. College hitters will light up drop curves. A pitcher has to have good, tight 12-6 and high RPS on a drop ball.

Bullet spins are posture & release mistakes. ...
Bullet spin is beneficial to one, and only one player = the batter.

No, they aren't. A lot of pitchers throw bullet spin pitches...Monica Abbott being one of them. I can post probably 20 videos from top college pitchers throwing bullet spin pitches.

And, the "easily identifiable" part of a bullet spin goes away if a pitcher simply changes the seam placement in her grip.


This is a Riley Smith slider. Riley is paid around $5,000,000 a year to pitch.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/InW3i4GvNk8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Bullet spin pitches are complicated.
 
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javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
I would have to side with Ray on this one. 12-6 is an absolute IF you're throwing the drop. There are no excuses for missing this spin, and when it's a 'little' off... so is the movement. Are goal should be to move the ball AWAY from the bat as much as possible.

Edit: To me... drills are a series of steps that a student does, that build on their awareness (mental and kinesthetic)... not a new toy, or a "motion". I'm about to refer to the common perception of drills... sorry if this response seems snarky...

There are no "good drills" for the drop, IMO. When you package a drill for the masses, you always leave out the "individual". In theory, the drop is SUPER SIMPLE... as there is only one way to produce topspin: THE FINGER PADS MUST BE ON THE BACK OF THE BALL - THE MOMENT THE THUMB STARTS TO SLIDE OFF. That's it... You do that... I guarantee you'll produce top spin.

Roll-over, schmollover... peel schmeel... ;) Those are all great ways to continue to bury the sport in "average". It's amazing how these two simple "types" of drops have different definitions in every county across the United States. And how some say, "well my daughter did it, so it must work..."

If you've read the I/R in the Classroom sticky, you should know why to lead with the pinkie... BM was teaching SPEED MECHANICS... which simply require that the hand be slightly "inside" the ball when the thumb starts to come off... as the arm INTERNALLY ROTATES. When this happens, FORCE is best imparted in the back of the ball, with the best timing. Because the thumb comes off the ball with the pads of the fingers slightly inside the ball... the resulting axis is EXACTLY the orientation of the ball as soon as the thumb started "letting go". That's it. Super simple.

Knowing that I/R occurs in EVERY PITCH... as Ken was suggesting, the timing of the I/R & Pronation of the forearm is what determines the axis of rotation (determines where the finger pads are on the ball). Here are some spin basics:

WHEN THE THUMB STARTS TO COME OFF THE BALL AND....
1) the finger pads are inside the ball... you get bullet spin.
2) the finger pads are behind the ball... you get drop spin.
3) the finger pads run DOWN the outside the ball... reverse bulletspin
4) the finger pads are under the ball... backspin
5) the finger pads run UP the outside of the ball... curve spin.

That's it. It really is THAT SIMPLE.

You don't need a drill... you need:

1) TO SEE THE SPIN. THROW AWAY TAPED BALLS, THEY ARE FOR LAZY or THOSE WITH LOWER EXPECTATIONS OF GIRLS... THAT LOSE THEIR SPIN IN THE GAME. Darken the laces with a permanent marker so you can learn to read the seams as the ball works towards the target.
2) To understand I/R. Go to sticky. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Once you utilize I/R correctly, simply show them how FOREARM PRONATION (when slightly added to I/R) can put their fingers behind the ball when the thumb starts to come off. As Ken suggested, I/R normally, but at BRUSH TRIGGER, pronate your forearm to the position he shows. Voila... drop spin.
3) To experiment with SLOW I/R movements like Ken suggested, where you end up with your finger pads on the back of the ball when the thumb starts to come off.
4) To practice at 10 feet, then, 15, then 20, etc... adding a little motion/distance to throw while holding the axis. You will not learn it efficiently, nor the ability to read the spin, trying to learn the drop from 43 feet.
5) Remember, drills are like a "cure" for some, and a "poison" to others... but the one thing they have in common is that they DON'T TEACH SPIN AWARENESS. Without that, you might as well turn off the lights and throw in the dark.

Just throw it low, call it a drop or drop-curve, like everyone else, and revert to calling those who hit her "drop" as "great hitters".

Better yet, try and rip your hand then shoulder over the top of the ball... or practice throwing a ball into the ground hard... or better yet... buy a hockey puck and slam that into the ground... or better yet... shorten your stride.... oy vey. (the last two sentences were me being facetious, btw... please don't do those...)

To put the whole reply in the shortest answer possible: It takes AWARENESS and TIME. It ain't easy, but there's no reason why you can't be cruising a DROP in 6 months. If you're trying to do it before the season comes, you'll do more damage than good.
 
Last edited:
Apr 5, 2013
2,130
83
Back on the dirt...
i would have to side with ray on this one. 12-6 is an absolute if you're throwing the drop. There are no excuses for missing this spin, and when it's a 'little' off... So is the movement. Are goal should be to move the ball away from the bat as much as possible.

There are no "good drills" for the drop, imo. When you package a drill for the masses, you always leave out the "individual". In theory, the drop is super simple... As there is only one way to produce topspin: The finger pads must be on the back of the ball - the moment the thumb starts to slide off. That's it... You do that... I guarantee you'll produce top spin.

Roll-over, schmollover... Peel schmeel... ;) those are all great ways to continue to bury the sport in "average". It's amazing how these two simple "types" of drops have different definitions in every county across the united states. And how some say, "well my daughter did it, so it must work..."

if you've read the i/r in the classroom sticky, you should know why to lead with the pinkie... Bm was teaching speed mechanics... Which simply require that the hand be slightly "inside" the ball when the thumb starts to come off... As the arm internally rotates. When this happens, force is best imparted in the back of the ball, with the best timing. Because the thumb comes off the ball with the pads of the fingers slightly inside the ball... The resulting axis is exactly the orientation of the ball as soon as the thumb started "letting go". That's it. Super simple.

Knowing that i/r occurs in every pitch... As ken was suggesting, the timing of the i/r & pronation of the forearm is what determines the axis of rotation (determines where the finger pads are on the ball). Here are some spin basics:

When the thumb starts to come off the ball and....
1) the finger pads are inside the ball... You get bullet spin.
2) the finger pads are behind the ball... You get drop spin.
3) the finger pads run down the outside the ball... Reverse bulletspin
4) the finger pads are under the ball... Backspin
5) the finger pads run up the outside of the ball... Curve spin.

That's it. It really is that simple.

You don't need a drill... You need:

1) to see the spin. Throw away taped balls, they are for lazy or those with lower expectations of girls... That lose their spin in the game. Darken the laces with a permanent marker so you can learn to read the seams as the ball works towards the target.
2) to understand i/r. Go to sticky. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Once you utilize i/r correctly, simply show them how forearm pronation (when slightly added to i/r) can put their fingers behind the ball when the thumb starts to come off. As ken suggested, i/r normally, but at brush trigger, pronate your forearm to the position he shows. Voila... Drop spin.
3) to experiment with slow i/r movements like ken suggested, where you end up with your finger pads on the back of the ball when the thumb starts to come off.
4) to practice at 10 feet, then, 15, then 20, etc... Adding a little motion/distance to throw while holding the axis. You will not learn it efficiently, nor the ability to read the spin, trying to learn the drop from 43 feet.
5) remember, drills are like a "cure" for some, and a "poison" to others... But the one thing they have in common is that they don't teach spin awareness. Without that, you might as well turn off the lights and throw in the dark.

Just throw it low, call it a drop or drop-curve, like everyone else, and revert to calling those who hit her "drop" as "great hitters".

Better yet, try and rip your hand then shoulder over the top of the ball... Or practice throwing a ball into the ground hard... Or better yet... Buy a hockey puck and slam that into the ground... Or better yet... Shorten your stride.... Oy vey. (the last two sentences were me being facetious, btw... Please don't do those...)

to put the whole reply in the shortest answer possible: It takes awareness and time. It ain't easy, but there's no reason why you can't be cruising a drop in 6 months. If you're trying to do it before the season comes, you'll do more damage than good.


Post of the year!


I wish I could get my pitcher PARENTS to understand this! I try but then they go back to their PC and get all messed up again looking for the magic drill....
 

javasource

6-4-3 = 2
May 6, 2013
1,347
48
Western NY
Post of the year!


I wish I could get my pitcher PARENTS to understand this! I try but then they go back to their PC and get all messed up again looking for the magic drill....

Amen. We're just advisers... the real pitching coaches need to be the parents. Sadly, PC's perpetuate these drill myth's... and parents just hand over their money and their DD's, perpetuating the vicious cycle. Few have interest in developing their own "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" when it comes to actually helping ALL kids get better.

And why do we have PC's that keep GOOD information a secret? Reminds me of another thread on here, that I will not directly comment on... we should all be working together on improving the game. It's through this that the sport grows.
 
Jun 17, 2009
15,105
0
Portland, OR
This video should depict the release action being described above......don't over complicate it. A good I/R fastball release action and a "snapover" drop action are identical. As JavaSource has indicated the ball comes off the fingers in a near peeling action. As a matter of fact, 99% of pitchers who go through all kinds of gyrations throwing a roll drop and think they get their fingers over/on top of the ball at release really don't.....they look just like this. So, again, keep it simple.





...................................
 
Feb 17, 2014
7,152
113
Orlando, FL
Many believe that drills are magical routines guaranteed to cure any problem. If I had a nickle for every time a bucket parent has told me about how their DD does X and asked for a drill to "fix" it, I would have a whole bunch of nickles. More often than not what people are seeking to correct with a drill is just a symptom of the real problem. Instead of working on pitching most would be much better served if they focused on throwing.
 
Mar 20, 2015
174
28
Identify where on the forearm she brushes. For bullet spin, it’s most likely along the ulna as seen in the first shot. For drop spin, try to brush along the flat area as seen in the next couple shots. Most often the third example.

DD tried this tonight and had good results with removing the yaw or partial bullet spin from her fastball. I noticed that ANY bullet spin kills the drop. The drop movement seems less sensitive to a slight change in axis. The axis is still going slightly towards RH batter or 11/5 spin from the pitchers perspective. My thought is she needs to get her hand and fingers more vertical or in a 12/6 orientation to get 12/6 spin since the ball is now rolling directly off her fingertips.
 
Last edited:
Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
Something else to try is changing which finger(s) she thinks about getting behind the ball. Start with the index finger then middle, then ring and finally pinky. Looks like this:

Screen Shot 2019-02-26 at 6.15.42 PM.jpg

You'll hopefully notice that these are the same photos...


Ultimately, your best bet is spin awareness:

1) TO SEE THE SPIN. THROW AWAY TAPED BALLS, THEY ARE FOR LAZY or THOSE WITH LOWER EXPECTATIONS OF GIRLS... THAT LOSE THEIR SPIN IN THE GAME. Darken the laces with a permanent marker so you can learn to read the seams as the ball works towards the target.
2) To understand I/R. Go to sticky. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Once you utilize I/R correctly, simply show them how FOREARM PRONATION (when slightly added to I/R) can put their fingers behind the ball when the thumb starts to come off. As Ken suggested, I/R normally, but at BRUSH TRIGGER, pronate your forearm to the position he shows. Voila... drop spin.
3) To experiment with SLOW I/R movements like Ken suggested, where you end up with your finger pads on the back of the ball when the thumb starts to come off.
4) To practice at 10 feet, then, 15, then 20, etc... adding a little motion/distance to throw while holding the axis. You will not learn it efficiently, nor the ability to read the spin, trying to learn the drop from 43 feet.
5) Remember, drills are like a "cure" for some, and a "poison" to others... but the one thing they have in common is that they DON'T TEACH SPIN AWARENESS. Without that, you might as well turn off the lights and throw in the dark.


My daughter's favorite cue is to think about slapping the inside of her thigh with her thumb.
 
Last edited:

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