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Aug 20, 2018
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Bare with me, I not trying to offend and I’ll explain in a second, but in my definition that is not a competitive team. It’s a rec team that pays too much money. Things like that are watering down the level of competition.



I said before, I think we are on the same page more than you think. Different approaches possibly ...

Which is my point. One thing we lack is a common definition of what is rec, travel, select, elite, competitive, etc. both in structure and in purpose. It can mean very different things in different areas (or to different people).

That lack of commonality leads back to @RADcatcher ’s point: anybody can call themselves anything (and start collecting checks).


You just kind of proved my point here. You just said that in YOUR definition my team isn't a competitive team. And that my team is just watering down competition. This is EXACTLY the elitist attitude that is ruining our sport, not building it up. More girls playing, more girls competing and learning is better. How is this even debatable? Tournaments are tiered to level out who are elite and who are lower skill level. I won't sit here and say my team is an A. It most certainly is not. When we first started we struggled vs B teams and even against lower. By your definition, my team was watering down competition because we didn't play as well as others. By the end of last season we were competing in every game we played in regardless of the level we were playing, granted we didn't play any super elite teams, but that isn't where we are.

There are SO many tournaments held every weekend. Instead of dogging on teams that aren't as good as those elite teams, more criticism needs to be put on those high level teams that join lower level tournaments.
 
Jul 14, 2018
982
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I can't speak for other parts of the country, but here in NJ/Eastern PA there is a definite pattern that emerges in the 10U/12U/14U ranks. While there are a few organizations that hire professional coaches at these levels, most of the teams are coached by parents.

The funny thing is, the really elite teams are almost all parent-coached. This has nothing to do with the quality of the professional coaching available, nor does it reflect some great coaching ability latent in some select few parents. It's all about the girls and their talent level.

What happens is this: Parent A has a daughter who is a total stud player at 12U. She either pitches in the 50s, or can hit a ball over the fence. He (or she) tells the parents of the two best players on their current team that they intend to form some super-competitive team. Of course, parents are flattered that Parent A wants their girls to play together.

The parents of other best-on-their-team girls get wind of what is going on, and before you know it, there's a super team of 12 elite players. This team goes out and destroys everyone, and then the coach goes on Facebook and complains that all the low-level teams are watering down the game, and poor us, we have to travel to Florida just to get a competitive game.

It's got nothing to do with coaching or development. It's just parents (and no doubt the players as well), who are all about winning. I get it, winning is fun and it's why you play the game. But it's not good for the long-term health of the sport. I haven't been around long enough to know what happens to those stud players at 12U who play for their dads and can't find competitive games. But I have a feeling that most will drift back to the pack at 16U when their physical advantages diminish.
 

radness

Possibilities & Opportunities!
Dec 13, 2019
7,270
113
ADD this perspective

For instance
Triple crown 2 day tourny
First day pool.
Results devide talent level.
( something like)
Gold
Silver
Platinum
Bronze

If average is what ?
The cut off at platinum?
Upper 50%
Lower 50%
Or perhaps
Gold top
Silver platinum middle
Bronze bottom
Whats your view?
However its looked at its a seperation of talent.

Some teams never make the next level up of talent.
I guess for some that would be considered a goal !?!?!


PGF nationals has 2 tiers
1. Premier
2. Platinum
Devided by talent level
~Lose 1st game go to losers bracket. Lose that game your done.

Tournaments in california
( not certain in all other states please add your info)
Now TCS offers elite bracket.
So the tournaments better teams play eachother.
And the rest play eachother.

In colorado
Multiple tournys in July
IDT is the top venue.
Invited teams to compete.
Not everyone gets to do that.

Again some people have goals and consider these opportunities goals!


Winning games in a tournament is staying in the tournament.

*Is 2 and bbq good enough for you? :)
 
Last edited:
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
Again, differences in different areas and different definitions @Frost033 .

If you have enough teams in your area that they are split into A, B, and C divisions, fantastic! More importantly, if you have an organization that enforces those classifications, even better. To me, that is where the real blame lies. (See, we are on the same page more than you think.) Organizations should be taking an active role in ensuring teams are playing at the right level — especially those trophy hunters — not just collecting checks.

I am not dogging on your team or saying you can’t compete ... I’m saying you weren’t formed as a competitive team. I’m saying that pulling girls out of your local rec league so they can “stay together” is not how a competitive team (competitive referring to the format of play, not your team’s ability) is formed.

Where we are going to agree to disagree is this: I’m saying in general it has destroyed community programs (e.g., rec leagues) and does more damage to the players and to the sport as a whole. I applaud you for being the rare exception.

I’m not trying to force my definition as the definition. I‘m trying to get the conversation going in the right direction: a common definition so we can communicate with better understanding. Please add your thoughts, here are mine:

Rec teams are formed in a random or equitable manner by the organizing body (such as a local not-for-profit or park district) which controls the formation of all the teams in the program and scheduling of games (and usually practices). Typically their play is limited to a short season played locally.

Competitive teams are formed through a tryout or recruiting process by a coach or organization which controls teams in their structure. Play occurs throughout the year, can involve travel, and typically happens in individual events (tournaments or leagues) organized by another organization.

What you see as elitism I see as advocacy. I believe every kid should have opportunity to play the game and play it at a level they enjoy. In my repeated experience, kids who are pushed/pulled out of their comfort zone in order to placate others (typically a coach’s or parent’s ego) typically will not stay with the game or foster a long-term love for it.
 
Feb 20, 2020
3
3
I am not dogging on your team or saying you can’t compete ... I’m saying you weren’t formed as a competitive team. I’m saying that pulling girls out of your local rec league so they can “stay together” is not how a competitive team (competitive referring to the format of play, not your team’s ability) is formed.

I completely understand what you are saying by the above. Our "rec" team was a little different though . . . we were a pretty competitive team who finished second at States (Florida), albeit for rec teams. I understand that rec and TB are a completely different animal but this team also won several NSA tournaments. We were not elite by any means and we would lose when we played USSSA level but to paint a broad stroke that we watered the talent level down just isn't accurate. We wouldn't have formed the team if we weren't competitive . . . I probably should've clarified that in my initial response.
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
I get you @Roonev . As we have all said in roundabout ways — it isn’t about the name of the brand, it is about finding the right level for the kids (not the coach).

One year when I ran rec (I feel like a broken record when I say that, but I feel the need to clarify timelines), we sent two “all star” teams to a small, low level ”competitive” tournament (then ASA) about an hour away. They placed 2nd and 3rd ... out of six teams.

We paid more for those two teams to play in that tournament than we paid our umpires for two full weeks of games. The level of play they saw was not so different than what we saw in our community park. So why did we need to pay that much?

The coaches of those two teams both came back and decided they wanted to coach “competitive” softball based on that experience:

*One took “his” 12u rec team. Their first tournament they scored 5 runs. They gave up 112. The next year, his team disbanded and only three players played (1 competitive, 2 back to rec). By high school, only one was still playing. The coach came back to rec with the expressed purpose of trying to do the same thing all over again. He never made it back to “competitive” ball.

*The other held tryouts and only ended up taking two of his players. He burned some bridges with some of “his” players from the rec team. Most of his players continued playing through high school. He has bounced back and forth, coaching “competitive” for a few years, them coming back and coaching rec for awhile as a way to give back (and relax himself).

In this area, that stuff has VERY MUCH watered down “competitive” ball. Since the team counts as lower, teams are merely lumped by age, not classification. The really competitive teams have left to travel to bigger tournaments in search of equitable competition. The teams left here travel regionally, but the level of play is often little better than what you would find in a good competitive community league. They are just expensive rec teams, but hey! They can go back to their school coach and say “I played competitive!”

In larger areas, that may not be the case since you have the team counts to support proper banding/classifying. That is my point ... context.
 
Apr 20, 2018
4,581
113
SoCal
Talent seem to congregate on a few teams. Parents want their DD to be on the elite team. But if that elite 12u team has 19 players (money grab) and your DD is the number 4 pitcher or the "utility player" and never sees the circle or the dirt what good comes from it. Really, the parents need to find teams in which their DD plays. Your DD is not going to get better or develop by osmosis. IMO 12u teams with more than 14 players is a disservice to the game. Parents there are no scouts at 12u pgf games. Just saying.
 
Apr 26, 2019
222
43
Was watching a 10U game at a tournament today. #1 seed team is up 6-2. Lower seed team starts a two out rally in the final regulation or penultimate inning in regulation

Girl playing 2B makes an error allowing the rally to continue. Her coach comes our of the dug out, moving at speed, screaming at her. He comes onto the field, crosses the white lines to about the circle yelling at this kid telling her she is out of the game.

Once she is off the field, he continues berating her in front of both teams and the crowd.

In my opinion, had this been my daughter we would have left immediately. All this coach did was teach 9/10/11 year old girls it is ok for a man to scream at you and berate you if you displease him. Something tells me, this isn't the first time similar has happened.

Want to take her from the game? Fine. Let her sit until he simmers down enough to explain why he did what he did. Not scream at her and embarrass and berate her in frint of a large crowd.
 

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