What’s consider crow hop/leaping

[clarity]

The replant is very easy to see if you're watching for it. It's the back knee, and only the back knee. If it faces anywhere behind the line from first to third and re-flexes, it's an illegal replant 100% of the time. No exceptions. Here's an example.

 

[texasheat]

The strikezone is not a rule being broken by a player.

And?

 

[texasheat]

Nope, does that disqualify me from this discussion?

Not at all, just hope you realize your statement " If a coach/parent knows it is a problem then they should address that before game time and not expect the rules to be ignored because DD was not properly instructed when starting out." is oversimplifying the leaping issue at 10u. You cannot fix a 10u leaper before the game. As I have mentioned countless times, that is fixed in the backyard by 100's if not 1000's of reps. I was asking if your DD was a pitcher because if she was, you should know how long it takes a 10 y/o to fix a mechanical flaw like that.

 

[radness]

Not at all, just hope you realize your statement " If a coach/parent knows it is a problem then they should address that before game time and not expect the rules to be ignored because DD was not properly instructed when starting out." is oversimplifying the leaping issue at 10u. You cannot fix a 10u leaper before the game. As I have mentioned countless times, that is fixed in the backyard by 100's if not 1000's of reps. I was asking if your DD was a pitcher because if she was, you should know how long it takes a 10 y/o to fix a mechanical flaw like that.

in all seriousness
really dont understand your position on this...
Are you saying it should not be addressed at all in a game by an umpire ever in 10u?

Previously i asked if anyone would consider making this rule apply to 12u and above...
Basically overlooking it at this 10u level.

Ask this again,
What age do you think this rule should be applied?

@texasheat your stance on it wont fix the pitcher who has a problem. Leaves out the pitchers who can fix the problem. And the ones doing it on purpose.

 

[texasheat]

Well I have 2 positions.

1. Big picture position --- Drop the dumb rule. No advantage is gained by doing it so who cares. Anyone who knows anything about vectors will tell you that leaping will decrease your speed, not increase it. You waste energy by lifting your body in the air, rather than propelling it towards the target. So save the anecdotal evidence of "Well one of our pitchers pitches faster when she does it". Science disagrees. Everyone one else in the world is allowed to do it except the USA. . All it does at this point is cause "rule book warrior" coaches and idiot parents searching for excuses on why their jenny struck out 2 times in a row to go ape during games. And yes I used to be one of them.

2 Since it is presently part of the game and girls are expected to adhere to the rules, my position is that calling it over and over will not fix the problem during the game because a 10 y/o with mechanical flaws cannot turn things like that on and off. So simply point it out to the pitcher and to the coach. Stop the game, call the coach to the circle and discuss. Resume game. Move on. Or do it after the game. Either way is fine. Then pitcher and parent work on it in the backyard in the coming weeks. Don't ruin that game trying to teach a lesson/punish a 10y/o by calling it dozens of times until she is either pulled or the other players fall asleep during the game. I REPEAT --- IT WLL NOT FIX THE PROBLEM DURING THE GAME.

Y'all act like I'm an alien or something for thinking this way. Obviously I'm not the only one that thinks this way since everyone agrees that most umps don't call it a bunch of times during a game. Heck that's what started the thread. An ump not calling it. Maybe you guys are the one's that need to rethink your position and realize that calling it over and over does nothing to fix the problem? Nah, that can't be it!!! Because all of you have DD pitchers and know how long it takes to fix mechanical issues. But I digress...........

And I already told you once what age it should be applied. The age of never.



I'll leave this here for you guys. It's a post from sluggers a few years ago.


People talk about "the unfair advantage of the leap". If there were an advantage, why aren't male pitchers leaping like crazy? How come the international pitchers aren't leaping?

The truth is that leaping creates no advantage.

Pitching is about momentum transfer. The pitcher gets the body going in a straight line toward the target, and then stops the body with her left side (for a right hand pitcher). If the timing is good, then the momentum that was built up is transferred to the ball. The key is to get as much of the body moving toward the target as possible. Pretty simple.

What happens to momentum if the pitcher leaps?

Let's assume a pitcher maximizes the distance of her leap. That means, she is leaping at a 45 degree angle.

Some of momentum the pitcher has created is used in launching the body up instead of forward. A pitcher leaping at a 45 degree angle will lose 30% of her momentum toward her target. That is a *lot* of lost momentum.

I believe that maximing the distance of a leap results in about a 5MPH to 10MPH drop in speed for a pitcher throwing 65MPH.

Ray

 

[Vertigo]

A pitcher can leap up and out at the same time, and she will land closer to the plate as opposed to when dragging. A long-jumper will jump much further than a high-jumper and both leave the ground.

 

[Vertigo]

I believe that maximing the distance of a leap results in about a 5MPH to 10MPH drop in speed for a pitcher throwing 65MPH.

Huh. I’ll have to let our pitcher know she can be throwing 70 mph without the leap.

 

[jadefish]

Well I have 2 positions.

I totally got your points. I also think that they should allow crow hop for girls if they allow it for men fastpitch. But I think crow hopper does have advantage. I am not sure whether it is because my DD got it fixed and I was a little regret when I saw other girls crow hopping not get called though.

About calling in the game, after reading many posts, I felt it is more like a problem of the team the leaper/crow hopper played against. It seems that they only had the problem when they were losing. My experience has been that they wouldn't have a problem if they also had a leaper/crow hopper on their team. There is no consistence there.

There are crow hop pitcher at D1 level and they don't get called. Seriously, if it doesn't get called at that level, no one should expect umpires calling it for a 8u-16u games. They need to call it at that level before travel ball umpires calling it for youth games. And if it doesn't get call at that level, it almost like it is not a real rule.

 

[flash277]

And here is where the problem begins. Prime example of letting it go at the younger ages because they are just learning and are so young. Parents and coaches then have no reason to try to get the player to break the habit because, “They never call it anyway.” Player then continues to pitch this way and all of a sudden when she’s older and it is getting called in HS, she falls apart. Why not use it as a teaching moment at this age so that they are forced to correct it before the muscle memory becomes too difficult to fix? I get that this may sound harsh at 10U but the umpires are not doing this player a favor at that age by allowing it to continue.

As an umpire, I had this a couple times calling 10U games. I didn't call it, the coaches didnt say anything. After the game I told the coach about it, he says he's working on it. That needs to be straightened out in practice. I'm not going to show up at a 10u game and call the first hop and make that pitcher become a walk machine, that's not good for anyone, that would make a miserable game for everyone playing and watching. I'd probably let it go in 12u too, with more warnings for the coach that this isn't gonna fly the older they get. If one of the coaches brings it up to me, I'll call it. 14 U and up, I've called it, that's my limit.

 

[radness]

Well I have 2 positions.

1. Big picture position --- Drop the dumb rule. No advantage is gained by doing it so who cares. Anyone who knows anything about vectors will tell you that leaping will decrease your speed, not increase it. You waste energy by lifting your body in the air, rather than propelling it towards the target. So save the anecdotal evidence of "Well one of our pitchers pitches faster when she does it". Science disagrees. Everyone one else in the world is allowed to do it except the USA. . All it does at this point is cause "rule book warrior" coaches and idiot parents searching for excuses on why their jenny struck out 2 times in a row to go ape during games. And yes I used to be one of them.

2 Since it is presently part of the game and girls are expected to adhere to the rules, my position is that calling it over and over will not fix the problem during the game because a 10 y/o with mechanical flaws cannot turn things like that on and off. So simply point it out to the pitcher and to the coach. Stop the game, call the coach to the circle and discuss. Resume game. Move on. Or do it after the game. Either way is fine. Then pitcher and parent work on it in the backyard in the coming weeks. Don't ruin that game trying to teach a lesson/punish a 10y/o by calling it dozens of times until she is either pulled or the other players fall asleep during the game. I REPEAT --- IT WLL NOT FIX THE PROBLEM DURING THE GAME.

Y'all act like I'm an alien or something for thinking this way. Obviously I'm not the only one that thinks this way since everyone agrees that most umps don't call it a bunch of times during a game. Heck that's what started the thread. An ump not calling it. Maybe you guys are the one's that need to rethink your position and realize that calling it over and over does nothing to fix the problem? Nah, that can't be it!!! Because all of you have DD pitchers and know how long it takes to fix mechanical issues. But I digress...........

And I already told you once what age it should be applied. The age of never.



I'll leave this here for you guys. It's a post from sluggers a few years ago.


People talk about "the unfair advantage of the leap". If there were an advantage, why aren't male pitchers leaping like crazy? How come the international pitchers aren't leaping?

The truth is that leaping creates no advantage.

Pitching is about momentum transfer. The pitcher gets the body going in a straight line toward the target, and then stops the body with her left side (for a right hand pitcher). If the timing is good, then the momentum that was built up is transferred to the ball. The key is to get as much of the body moving toward the target as possible. Pretty simple.

What happens to momentum if the pitcher leaps?

Let's assume a pitcher maximizes the distance of her leap. That means, she is leaping at a 45 degree angle.

Some of momentum the pitcher has created is used in launching the body up instead of forward. A pitcher leaping at a 45 degree angle will lose 30% of her momentum toward her target. That is a *lot* of lost momentum.

I believe that maximing the distance of a leap results in about a 5MPH to 10MPH drop in speed for a pitcher throwing 65MPH.

Ray

Alright @texasheat! Way to bring it.

So why do you think the majority of men pitchers who are allowed to leap do?
_______________

I will say without doubt
Having faced pitchers who trained to crow hop and leap deffinetly developed and had advantage from it.
Experienced when could and when they couldnt.
While some still do (slightly)
It is NOT AS GNARLY as when the female pitcher's trained to do it on purpose.
*Thats right woman were allowed to hop/leap!
And that rule changed!
Because its was one of the reasons pitchers were so dominant!
Changed because hardly any base hits or runs. Longgg extra inning games.

Standing in the batters box is the best way to truely understand what it does to timing the pitcher and seeing the actual release point.

When they moved pitching back 3 feet it helped batters and can be seen in those stats.
Imagine the pitcher gaining back 3 feet.