USA Fastpitch Rules - Questions

[The Man In Blue]

Excellent. Not impeding the runner. The runner is making a decisssion. Noone would be interferening with her progress. She creates her own progress. I totally agree with impeding the cathcer's ability to throw. I'm looking at the rule will no runners on. My player squares to bunt. The ball is clearly a ball and she doesn't move her bat. So based on your comments. You would call that a ball. Is that correct. This is the only scenario that I run it. So in your ruling it would be a ball. Correct?

Going to get myself in trouble ... I call it a strike every chance I can get. As I said, if you put the bat out there, I see that as an attempt to hit the ball.

I am completely lost on what you are trying to accomplish. You have talked about obstruction and being on offense, maybe I’m missing something, it’s been a long hot weekend,

 

[marriard]

Rubbish. There should never be a fee to file a protest. When there is, you are not in a competition event, but a money grab

How is it a money grab?

I just went and looked over our tournament reports for the last 7 years. 29 tournaments all with $100 protest fee: 7 total protests, 2 upheld, 5 denied. Total revenue $500 which the UIC generally spent on extra food and drinks for the umpires.

I was at a baseball tourney hosted at our fields without a protest fee. Day 1: 18 protests. 10 from the same moron. Day 2: They put in a $100 protest fee - 1 protest. Day 3: none

Pretest fee is a deterrent from making frivolous protests.

 

[testandor]

I have to agree with Comp on this one.

... that bunt thing is the dumbest rule I can think of. What other reason would a batter have for putting the bat out over the plate except to make an attempt to bunt the ball.

Of all the travel teams I had over a 20 year period, I made sure that every one of those kids was properly taught how to move a runner with a sacrifice bunt. While the timing of squaring to bunt depended on the skill of the bunter and the corners, they always ended up with the bat out over the plate before they knew if it was a ball or strike. And in many cases with younger players, before the pitcher even released the pitch.
In all cases it was before they knew whether they were going to attempt to put that pitch in play. Squaring to bunt and then setting is the same as getting to toe touch before hitting. Once they recognize that pitch as not being in the strike zone, leaving the bat out there for what the bunter thought was a ball is the same as the hitter leaving the bat on her shoulder when she recognizes the same thing. They are both "taking the pitch".

And I would say that any ruleset that has adopted the batter must withdraw the bat or be charged a strike regardless of where the pitch is located is the dumbest rule I have ever heard of. What reason would a batter have to withdraw the bat for a pitch that is going over the backstop, 10' outside/inside or rolling on the ground?

There is no good reason. It should be a called ball or strike based solely on whether the plate umpire thought it went through the strike zone or not. Also, other than a push bunt or some other special situation, I don't want my bunters striking at or moving the bat toward the pitch when sacrifice bunting. I want them "catching" the ball with the bat, not hitting the ball with the bat.

 

[The Man In Blue]

I’m not disagreeing with you Comp, at least, not on purpose.

I agree, if the ball is nowhere near the plate, it is obvious the batter is not making any real attempt at hitting the ball. I still don’t know why you would leave the bat out there, but I’m not calling that. So that is where I will give you that rule.

However, if that ball is anywhere close and the bat is laying over the plate when the ball goes by, I’m hammering every time I can. As Testandor said, not every bunt is meant to happen by pushing the ball. I’ll ask again ... if there is no intent to attempt to hit the ball, why is the bat out there?

I disagree that leaving the bat over the plate is the same as leaving it on your shoulder, though. If a batter checks a swing, we’re (generally, some rule sets have deviation) calling a swing if the bat gets out over the plate no matter where the ball is. A check swing isn’t an attempt to hit the ball. It’s an attempt not to hit the ball. But the bat is out there as the ball goes by. Hammer.

 

[testandor]

I’ll ask again ... if there is no intent to attempt to hit the ball, why is the bat out there?

I disagree that leaving the bat over the plate is the same as leaving it on your shoulder, though. If a batter checks a swing, we’re (generally, some rule sets have deviation) calling a swing if the bat gets out over the plate no matter where the ball is.

This is true.

A check swing isn’t an attempt to hit the ball. It’s an attempt not to hit the ball.

This is also true.

But the bat is out there as the ball goes by. Hammer.

I don't think I made my analogy as clear as I could have. I don't think you and I are that far apart in our thinking. You may still disagree, but I'd like to try to make my point more clearly stated.

When I coach the sac bunt to kids, when they pivot and set, the bat should be at the top of the strike zone. To my way of coaching, I see this as the same position the batter is in when she gets to "toe touch" or "launch position". They have both cocked the trigger but have not yet pulled the trigger.

When the pitcher releases the ball, the only option my bunter has is to bend her knees to lower the bat if she reads the pitch to be lower than the top of the strike zone, which is where I said I want the bat when she pivots and sets.

Back to my analogy of cocking the trigger but not yet pulling it. If the batter starts her swing, as umpires, we judge whether she committed to the swing or not by where that bat is in relationship to the plate when she checks her swing. Or, as you correctly defined it, when she changes her mind from making "an attempt to hit the ball" to making "an attempt not to hit the ball".

In the case of a bunter, unless the pitch is coming directly at where the bat is being held, (in which case it will hit the bat), her decision to try to contact the ball begins when she moves the bat in any direction toward the ball. And just as the batter has a right to change her mind from attempting to hit the ball to attempting to not hit it, so does the bunter. But unlike the batter, who we judge by how far she's brought that bat towards or over the plate, we judge the bunter by whether she pulled the bat back, and if so, whether she pulled it back in time. In my mind, any attempt to move the bat toward the pitched ball has to be countered by a pull back of the bat if she wants to change her mind from attempting to hit the ball to attempting to not hit the ball.

So, to compare:

LAUNCH POSITION (Pre Swing/Pre Bunt)
BATTER: Toe touch.
BUNTER: Pivot and set.

ATTEMPT TO HIT BALL
BATTER: Begin swing.
BUNTER: Move bat in any direction toward ball.

CHANGE TO ATTEMPT TO NOT HIT PITCH:
BATTER: Umpire's judgement as to how far bat has gone to/through home plate.
BUNTER: Umpire's judgement as to whether bunter has pulled bat back in time.

Unless the bunter keeps the bat unmoved from where she's set it after her pivot, any movement of the bat toward the ball is to be called a strike (assuming the bat does NOT touch the pitched ball) - regardless of whether it went through the strike zone - unless the bat is pulled back in time (in the judgement of the umpire), in which case the umpire will call strike or ball as he sees it. But merely leaving the bat unmoved from the original pivot and set position - clearly, in MY mind - means the umpire calls ball or strike just like any other called strike or ball - by where the pitch was in relation to the strike zone.

You still may not agree with my assessment, but at least now you'll understand my reasoning. Also, thanks for bringing up the subject. I enjoyed thinking through this process.

 

[MTR]

How is it a money grab?

I just went and looked over our tournament reports for the last 7 years. 29 tournaments all with $100 protest fee: 7 total protests, 2 upheld, 5 denied. Total revenue $500 which the UIC generally spent on extra food and drinks for the umpires.

I was at a baseball tourney hosted at our fields without a protest fee. Day 1: 18 protests. 10 from the same moron. Day 2: They put in a $100 protest fee - 1 protest. Day 3: none

Pretest fee is a deterrent from making frivolous protests.

They have already paid a fee for participation, so there should already be a UIC or committee on site. And a protest doesn't take that long if the tournament is properly staffed. I've been a UIC at the state, regional and national tournament level and there has never been an issue and yes, there were protests without a fee. And if the UIC is qualified, frivolous isn't even an issue. Absolutely no delays in the schedule.

 

[The Man In Blue]

Testandor, thank you for putting that much work into that!

I get your point on “starting position” and actions, but my sticking point is: what is the purpose/intent of a bat being out over home plate, whether it is swinging or leaving the stationary bat out as the ball goes by?

It doesn’t change the USA ruling, but just for fun and maybe some perspective, here is the NFHS rule:

Rule 2 - DEFINITIONS
SECTION 8 BUNT, ATTEMPTED BUNT, DRAG BUNT
ART. 1 . . . Bunt. A bunt is a legally batted ball not swung at but intentionally tapped with the bat.
ART. 2 . . . Attempted Bunt. Any non-swinging movement of the bat intended to tap the ball into play. Holding the bat in the strike zone is considered a bunt attempt. In order to take a pitch, the bat must be withdrawn–pulled backward and away from the ball.

 

[Comp]

And again, one of the dumbest rules ever come up with. And the reasoning was even more stupid, supposedly to make the umpires job in determining if it was a bunt attempt or not by removing the need for the umpire to make a judgement. Our job is to make a judgement on every single thing we call, we must judge if the ball was in the strike zone or not,, we must judge if the batter made an attempt to hit the ball or not. Literally every call we make requires some type of judgement.

 

[NCASAUmp]

They have already paid a fee for participation, so there should already be a UIC or committee on site. And a protest doesn't take that long if the tournament is properly staffed. I've been a UIC at the state, regional and national tournament level and there has never been an issue and yes, there were protests without a fee. And if the UIC is qualified, frivolous isn't even an issue. Absolutely no delays in the schedule.

I agree. Not to mention the fact that if teams aren’t allowed to protest, that only encourages coaches to work over the umpires even harder. A protest over a rule interpretation takes the coach’s heat off of the umpire.


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[testandor]

my sticking point is: what is the purpose/intent of a bat being out over home plate, whether it is swinging or leaving the stationary bat out as the ball goes by?

I know that's your sticking point.

You and I are in agreement with everything, except about not withdrawing the bat if she thinks it's out of the strike zone.

As I had said,

1. "In the case of a bunter, unless the pitch is coming directly at where the bat is being held, (in which case it will hit the bat), her decision to try to contact the ball begins when she moves the bat in any direction toward the ball."
2. "In my mind, any attempt to move the bat toward the pitched ball has to be countered by a pull back of the bat if she wants to change her mind from attempting to hit the ball to attempting to not hit the ball."

So, we really seem to agree on everything, except, what could possibly be the purpose of leaving the bat out there if not to hit (bunt) the ball. And, by the way, I always taught my players to withdraw the bat if they decided not to bunt the pitch. As I remember it, that was the rule. But in my mind, that set position is to the bunter what "toe touch" is to the batter - pre-launch, pre-attempt to hit the ball, and as long as she hasn't moved the bat to the ball to try to bunt it, if it's out of the strike zone it should be called a ball. Unfortunately, what's in my mind is not necessarily what's in the rule book.

I will never argue rules with you, Comp, Marriard or MTR, or any other qualified umpire. I haven't attended clinics or rule interpretation meetings, and since I don't ump HS, I don't attend those 6-7 mandatory meetings. But I believe that, at least with USA, as long as you don't move the bat toward the ball, leaving that bat out over the plate is NOT an automatic strike. It is whatever the umpire calls it.