Umpire has the count wrong, then what?

[Comp]

Umpires can never overrule another umpires call. If you protest, the uic is called to the field and they then make a determination as to if the protest is valid or not and if the umpire used the correct rule and application. From there the uic makes a ruling.

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[CHSUmp97]

FWIW, in NCAA play, the count may be corrected until the moment the batter up to bat completes her turn at bat. Here's the case play:

A.R. 15-11. The batter has a 3-1 count and although the next pitch is called a ball, no one acknowledges the base on balls. The next pitch is a foul ball.

(1) Before the seventh pitch, the offensive coach asks the plate umpire for the count and it is confirmed to be 4-2. Can the umpire correct the count and award the batter first base even though a pitch has been thrown after the mistake?

(2) Following the foul ball, the seventh pitch is a called a strike for strike three. The offensive coach immediately requests the plate umpire award the batter the base on balls she had previously earned, thus negating the strike out.

(3) On the next pitch, the batter hits an out-of-the-park home run and the defensive coach immediately requests the plate umpire award the batter the base on balls she had previously earned, thus negating the home run?

RULING: (1) Yes, as long as the batter has not completed her turn at bat, the umpire may correct the count. In this case, the batter would be awarded first base because the rules say when a batter receives a fourth ball, she is awarded first base without liability to be put out. Similarly, if a batter leaves the batter’s box headed for the dugout thinking she struck out (but has not) or heads to first base thinking she walked (but has not), the umpire shall direct her back to the batter’s box to complete her turn at-bat.
In both (2) and (3), the window of opportunity to correct the count no longer exists because the batter completed her turn at-bat. The result of the play remains the action from the last delivered pitch - strikeout in the first case and home run in the second.
Note: Rules 15.2.15 and 15.9.3 do not apply as this is not a case of a delayed call or a reversed decision putting a player in undue jeopardy.
(Rule 15.3.5)

 

[The Man In Blue]

I would swear there is another play I have seen with runners on base, but here is what I found from USA saying the count can be corrected. And 10-3-C is in reference to an actual play called on the field, that cannot be corrected after another pitch.

PLAY: With 2 outs, R1 on 3B and a count of three balls and one strike on B4, the next pitch is a ball. The umpire calls ball but does not recognize it as ball four. The next pitch to the same batter is fouled off and the umpire gives the count as three balls and two strikes. In a) the offensive coach asks for time, approaches the plate umpire and says “their batter should be on 1B because the previous pitch was ball four.” In b) the umpire gives the count as three balls and two strikes and the next pitch is hit for a home run. Before a pitch to the next batter the defensive coach approaches the plate umpire and said the count was wrong and that player should have been walked.
Ruling: In a) once the umpires get together, discuss the situation and discover the count was wrong, B4 should be awarded 1B since B4 should have received a base on balls two pitches before. In b) once the umpires get together, discuss the situation and discovered the count was wrong, B4 should be placed on 1B because B4 should have been awarded a base on balls two pitches before.

Love you Comp, but you know I have to do it ... That is not what the rule says.

 

[Comp]

Regardless of what you may think, it is pretty obvious from the case play that rule 10-3-C is in regard to an actual play, not a wrong pitch count.

I have never seen anywhere in any rule set anything that says the pitch count cannot be corrected after a pitch to the same batter.

 

[CHSUmp97]

Regardless of what you may think, it is pretty obvious from the case play that rule 10-3-C is in regard to an actual play, not a wrong pitch count.

I have never seen anywhere in any rule set anything that says the pitch count cannot be corrected after a pitch to the same batter.

Agree. 10-3-C is the jeopardy rule. It specifically deals with scenarios where an umpire makes a wrong call that causes a team to react when they shouldn’t have if the call was not made.

Screwing up the count is not a situation that puts a team in jeopardy. Batter has a 1-0 count and the next pitch is a called strike. The next pitch is a ball and the umpire then gives the count to everyone as “One Ball, Two Strikes”. One more pitch is thrown for a Ball, and now he says, “Two Balls, Two Strikes.” The offensive coach then says, “Blue, I’ve got 3 and 1.” The PU checks with his partner and his partner flashes him 3-1.

Where is the jeopardy here? There was none. And by 10-3-C, are you going to suggest that it’s too late to correct the previous “One Ball, Two Strikes” call by the PU because another pitch was thrown? So the batter has to take the next pitch with an incorrect 2-2 count versus a correct 3-1 count? That’s not how I would handle it, regardless what 10-3-C says. If the coach and my partner both have 3-1, then I’ve gotta believe I messed up, and I’m making the fix.


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[The Man In Blue]

Agree. 10-3-C is the jeopardy rule. It specifically deals with scenarios where an umpire makes a wrong call that causes a team to react when they shouldn’t have if the call was not made.

Screwing up the count is not a situation that puts a team in jeopardy. Batter has a 1-0 count and the next pitch is a called strike. The next pitch is a ball and the umpire then gives the count to everyone as “One Ball, Two Strikes”. One more pitch is thrown for a Ball, and now he says, “Two Balls, Two Strikes.” The offensive coach then says, “Blue, I’ve got 3 and 1.” The PU checks with his partner and his partner flashes him 3-1.

Where is the jeopardy here? There was none. And by 10-3-C, are you going to suggest that it’s too late to correct the previous “One Ball, Two Strikes” call by the PU because another pitch was thrown? So the batter has to take the next pitch with an incorrect 2-2 count versus a correct 3-1 count? That’s not how I would handle it, regardless what 10-3-C says. If the coach and my partner both have 3-1, then I’ve gotta believe I messed up, and I’m making the fix.


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I didn’t say it wasn’t the right thing to do (yes, I agree and I correct the count, been there done that.). I said that is not what USA’s rule says. It very specifically says ANY SITUATION.

If you want to tell me it doesn’t apply AT ALL to correcting the count because it lists protections for the batter-runner, runner, and defense, then that is a (sometimes) correct reading. It does not protect a batter and thus doesn’t apply by the letter of the law.

In the case play, USA seems to be applying 10-3-C as allowing the batter to continue to bat did put the defense at jeopardy in (b). As the offensive coach, I would make the argument that if you are applying 10-3-C, the error occurred when the incorrect count was given, but once the next pitch was thrown, BY RULE it is too late to correct the error and the HR should stand. (Again, my issue is with a case play that calls for a ruling in contradiction to the rule.)

I’m not as convinced that 10-3-C should apply in (a), but correcting the count is the right thing to do in that situation and there is no “un-call” or real consequence to fixing it.

 

[CoachJD]

A question to the umpires here on how to approach when they have the count wrong (for the purposes of this, assume they definitely have it wrong).

In the past when this has happened, I have (respectfully, of course), tried to recall in detail every pitch. So something like "first pitch was the ball in the dirt, second was that foul ball down the line, then a called strike..." I'm always wary of coming across like a jerk in these discussions, so would this way of handling it be OK?

 

[testandor]

I'm always wary of coming across like a jerk in these discussions

Then don’t. It shouldn’t be that hard at all. If you know the 3-1 count you were just given is wrong because it’s really 2-2, just do the easiest thing in the world. “Blue, could you (please?) check with your partner? I’ve got 2-2.” I’m not sure I know anyone who wouldn’t check. In the very unlikely event my partner is also wrong and has the same count as me, and you still think we’re wrong, I’d probably ask the other team’s scorekeeper. If they agree with you, we change the count. If not, you’re beat - and most likely wrong.

 

[The Man In Blue]

I agree with @testandor ... no need to make a production out of it by trying to recall details. Sometimes a simple straightforward question is the best approach.

One thing I would recommend (and an issue I have in the case play presented) ... don’t wait a pitch or two to see if it works out in your favor and then ask for it be corrected after it doesn’t. It doesn’t help your credibility even if you are right.

 

[testandor]

CHSump97

Screwing up the count is not a situation that puts a team in jeopardy.

Although your example is benign, because nothing negative happens to either team, you are quite right! So let's look at the example given in the case study, where the ball called on a 3-1 pitch is not recognized as ball 4. Next pitch is hit over the fence for a HR. Some would say that the defense was certainly put in jeopardy there because, had the batter been properly put on 1B after what should have been a BB, she wouldn't have hit the HR. Not so! You can't judge being put in jeopardy by the outcome. It has to be judged at the time of the action or decision that put the person - or in this case, the team - in a different situation than they were already in. In fact, I'd argue that the defense got a break, because had the count been correct, they would have put that batter on 1B with a properly called and recognized ball 4.

My bigger issue is, where is the personal responsibility with the teams themselves? Disregarding for the moment rec leagues and little kids, what semi competent team gets a ball called on a 3-1 pitch, and in the event their batter doesn't immediately start trotting down to 1B, doesn't yell out to the batter that it's ball 4? Or doesn't question the PU if that shouldn't have been ball 4? And while I'm on personal responsibility, what pitcher-catcher combination doesn't realize they just walked the batter on ball 4? In case they're asleep (which they aren't - they know!), which defensive coach doesnt know? Ahh, but let that pitcher give up a HR on the next pitch as described in case study (b), and NOW that defensive coach wants to correct the count and place that batter on 1B? Yeh, OK. Not sayin' it doesn't have to be corrected, I'm just callin' bullshit.

We've discussed here before the situation where a batter gets a dropped 3rd, with less than 2 out and 1B occupied, and the batter runs to 1st nonetheless. It's been pointed out by more learned umpires than me that it's the defense's responsibility to know the situation, so the PU shouldn't call "Batter out" if that happens. I say that it's even easier for both teams to know what the count is. As soon as it's called incorrectly, they ought to be active in getting it corrected, and not waiting for the batter to see if she can survive a 3rd strike that wasn't recognized by the PU, or the defense waiting to see if they can survive a called ball that wasn't recognized as ball 4.