This weekend the umpire had the wrong count on the batter we were pitching to (he didn't give the count prior to the pitch or we could have corrected it then). He had 0-1 when we actually had 0-2. He called a strike but didn't signal an out. I called time and asked but he said there were only 2 strikes. I came back to our scorekeeper and made sure but was barely able to call time again before our pitcher delivered another pitch. Ultimately the umps got together and made the correct call, but I was curious, what would have happened if our pitcher delivered the next pitch? Does the count he has (correct or not) become the new count if another pitch is delivered?
Umpire has the count wrong, then what?
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- Sep 29, 2014
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Far as I know (which isn't much) the count is always whatever the umpire says it is....should he consult his other umpires (probably), check with the scorekeeper (maybe, I would sometimes, but less inclined)....but in the end he doesn't have to.
Ugh....
Ok, by the rule: NFHS:10-2-1
If there are two (or more) umpires, the plate umpire shall stand behind the catcher, call and count balls and strikes, signal each fair hit and call out "foul ball" while signaling each foul hit and make all decisions on the batter. The plate umpire shall make all decisions except those commonly reserved for the field umpire.
So like a lot of things, the end decision on the count is on the plate umpire. If they lose track (and we all have at some point), the first recourse is to ask your partner (which is meant to be verbal, but believe me most umpires have a quick signal to ask discreetly). Then if you are still unsure, then check with the scorekeeper or more likely in travel the home book and then hope the away book agrees. In the end, if it is not clear what the count is, the plate umpire has to make a call - it is his responsibility to have the official count.
BTW if I ask my partner and we disagree or if I am less than 100% I have it right, I will ALWAYS verbally announce what count I have just in case we do have it wrong. If I am totally uncertain I will stop play until I make a final call and everyone is on the same page (whether they like it or not). Also if a coach says "I have 2-1" and I don't then I am addressing that right then - I don't need anyone to tell me to check. It doesn't hurt to make sure right then.
In this case of your original post, it is easily correctable since everyone agrees the count was wrong and it was strike 3. So even if another pitch has been thrown. I would have to declare no pitch, call the batter out and suck up the consequences whatever they are and learn my lesson on paying attention and keeping count properly. Sometimes you have to just take responsibility for the hot mess you created.
Ok, by the rule: NFHS:10-2-1
If there are two (or more) umpires, the plate umpire shall stand behind the catcher, call and count balls and strikes, signal each fair hit and call out "foul ball" while signaling each foul hit and make all decisions on the batter. The plate umpire shall make all decisions except those commonly reserved for the field umpire.
So like a lot of things, the end decision on the count is on the plate umpire. If they lose track (and we all have at some point), the first recourse is to ask your partner (which is meant to be verbal, but believe me most umpires have a quick signal to ask discreetly). Then if you are still unsure, then check with the scorekeeper or more likely in travel the home book and then hope the away book agrees. In the end, if it is not clear what the count is, the plate umpire has to make a call - it is his responsibility to have the official count.
BTW if I ask my partner and we disagree or if I am less than 100% I have it right, I will ALWAYS verbally announce what count I have just in case we do have it wrong. If I am totally uncertain I will stop play until I make a final call and everyone is on the same page (whether they like it or not). Also if a coach says "I have 2-1" and I don't then I am addressing that right then - I don't need anyone to tell me to check. It doesn't hurt to make sure right then.
In this case of your original post, it is easily correctable since everyone agrees the count was wrong and it was strike 3. So even if another pitch has been thrown. I would have to declare no pitch, call the batter out and suck up the consequences whatever they are and learn my lesson on paying attention and keeping count properly. Sometimes you have to just take responsibility for the hot mess you created.
That's what I would do, but I was just curious. When I was calling baseball it certainly happened to me and I hated working with the guys that I knew didn't keep the count in the field. Thanks!
Pitch count can be corrected up until a pitch is thrown to another batter. Not sure about NFHS, but USA has a case play where a batter should have walked on ball 4 but hits a grand slam on the next pitch. When brought to the umpires attention before a pitch is thrown to another batter, the home run is negated, the runners are returned with the exception of the on forced home by the walk and the next batter comes to bat. After a pitch is thrown to another batter it cannot be corrected.
- May 29, 2015
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Comp ... do you know when that case play was by any chance? My reading of USA 10.3.C makes no reference to “another batter”. It says “This correction is not possible after one pitch legal or illegal, ...”
I don't have access to USA case studies so if you have one, love to see how they call it.
I couldn't find a case study in NFHS or really a rule that would apply directly apart from what I wrote above though it makes absolute sense and would be my onfield call if a pitch had been thrown to another batter.
- May 29, 2015
- 3,813
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But there is no good way to search it. They list everything chronologically by when they wrote an article on it.
I would swear there is another play I have seen with runners on base, but here is what I found from USA saying the count can be corrected. And 10-3-C is in reference to an actual play called on the field, that cannot be corrected after another pitch.
PLAY: With 2 outs, R1 on 3B and a count of three balls and one strike on B4, the next pitch is a ball. The umpire calls ball but does not recognize it as ball four. The next pitch to the same batter is fouled off and the umpire gives the count as three balls and two strikes. In a) the offensive coach asks for time, approaches the plate umpire and says “their batter should be on 1B because the previous pitch was ball four.” In b) the umpire gives the count as three balls and two strikes and the next pitch is hit for a home run. Before a pitch to the next batter the defensive coach approaches the plate umpire and said the count was wrong and that player should have been walked.
Ruling: In a) once the umpires get together, discuss the situation and discover the count was wrong, B4 should be awarded 1B since B4 should have received a base on balls two pitches before. In b) once the umpires get together, discuss the situation and discovered the count was wrong, B4 should be placed on 1B because B4 should have been awarded a base on balls two pitches before.
PLAY: With 2 outs, R1 on 3B and a count of three balls and one strike on B4, the next pitch is a ball. The umpire calls ball but does not recognize it as ball four. The next pitch to the same batter is fouled off and the umpire gives the count as three balls and two strikes. In a) the offensive coach asks for time, approaches the plate umpire and says “their batter should be on 1B because the previous pitch was ball four.” In b) the umpire gives the count as three balls and two strikes and the next pitch is hit for a home run. Before a pitch to the next batter the defensive coach approaches the plate umpire and said the count was wrong and that player should have been walked.
Ruling: In a) once the umpires get together, discuss the situation and discover the count was wrong, B4 should be awarded 1B since B4 should have received a base on balls two pitches before. In b) once the umpires get together, discuss the situation and discovered the count was wrong, B4 should be placed on 1B because B4 should have been awarded a base on balls two pitches before.
- Jul 14, 2018
- 982
- 93
We had a count snafu in a semi-final USSSA game this past fall. With two outs, runner on third, the count was 1-2. The batter swung and missed the next pitch, catcher threw the ball back to the pitcher who dropped the ball in the circle and everyone started to walk off the field. The third base coach, alertly realizing that the home plate umpire had only signaled a strike and not an out, told the runner on third to go touch home. The run counted, and DD's team had to re-take the field (luckily there were no other runners).
Our coach protested, but the second umpire declined to overrule the hp umpire. I was doing GameChanger, it was definitely strike three, as the scorebook in our dugout (and I suspect the other dugout) had it.
TL/DR: Umpires are human, mistakes happen, it's part of the game.
Our coach protested, but the second umpire declined to overrule the hp umpire. I was doing GameChanger, it was definitely strike three, as the scorebook in our dugout (and I suspect the other dugout) had it.
TL/DR: Umpires are human, mistakes happen, it's part of the game.
