Types of pitches

[Fury_Mike]

This discussion has been about spin vs control. That leaves out something important, speed. Once a pitcher gets the basic mechanics down I add a 'speed' session to the lesson. I tell them to start throwing the ball faster, then faster, then as fast as they can. I always add 'but don't lose your form'. I don't care where the ball goes, just throw it fast. I prefer the word fast over hard, there is a subtle difference. When I take on a new student who has taken lessons from another instructor I always get a chuckle out of the looks they give me when I tell them to 'throw it fast', they're like "really?"

Yep I tell them on their first lesson that I don’t care where it goes, throw as hard as you can

 

[NBECoach]

I'm not speaking to Barhhill's rise being good or bad, bullet spin or backspin. But I can tell you where you got it in your head, ESPN and Michele Smith They over glamorize every pitcher on TV to the point it's obnoxious. Barnhill seems to have had a great career and did well for her team but, just because a ball goes high doesn't mean it's a riseball. If it did, then everyone playing slowpitch would have a riseball as they throw it high!!!!!!

Bill

I agree with this. I am not a pitching coach but do teach hitting to HS players and I get very interested whenever there is a "rise ball" pitcher. I wish I could see the release and ball rotation. To me it seems the ball doesn't actually rise but starts out and stays on upward trajectory so it appears to go up from the moment it leaves the pitchers hand. Wheras a rise ball should go straight and then rise correct? That's the trajectory I want to see even if the movement is small.

The reason? Our batters get themselves out with poor bat path when the opposing pitcher throws a ball at the top of the strike zone.

 

[Fury_Mike]

A wise coach once told me; “the best way to hit a rise ball is to not swing at it”

 

[Hillhouse]

I agree with this. I am not a pitching coach but do teach hitting to HS players and I get very interested whenever there is a "rise ball" pitcher. I wish I could see the release and ball rotation. To me it seems the ball doesn't actually rise but starts out and stays on upward trajectory so it appears to go up from the moment it leaves the pitchers hand. Wheras a rise ball should go straight and then rise correct? That's the trajectory I want to see even if the movement is small.

The reason? Our batters get themselves out with poor bat path when the opposing pitcher throws a ball at the top of the strike zone.

The debate rages about whether the riseball 'goes up" or just drops less. For every person who claims to know the math about how fast the ball needs to spin, that no human can spin that fast, times speed of pitch, etc. etc. etc. Another expert will come out and say it is possible as the other guy didn't factor in actual weight of ball, wind resistance, seam height, direction of spin, etc. etc. etc. Honestly, I'm not smart enough to know who's right. I just know that I've been hearing the "it drops less" thing for 20+ years and it didn't help my ability to hit the rise consistently. In theory, if I have a pitcher "picked" and I know the rise is coming, I should be able to adjust for it "dropping less". Yet... zoom.... right past me. LOL. I never played baseball in my life, I grew up learning how to hit in Fastpitch. I never had a hitting coach tell me what's right or wrong in my swing, and like all pitchers, I think I was a decent hitter. I just know, on the riseball, the trick is to keep your hands above the ball. That's your only fighting chance. I laugh at baseball guys who say "don't swing at it". Yea, ok pal. Great advice.

Teach your hitters how to pick pitchers. Their average will jump exponentially. Knowing what's coming is 1/2 the battle.

Bill

 

[Hillhouse]

A wise coach once told me; “the best way to hit a rise ball is to not swing at it”

And if the elephant has 3 balls, you walk him and pitch to the giraffe.

 

[jfitch12]

Yeah, so my comment on Barnhill was a pretty solid miss, lol

Not sure where I got that into my head.

I thought you were joking (maybe I misunderstood, which is common for me!). Anyway, the first post in this thread shows a backspin rise : https://www.discussfastpitch.com/threads/barnhill.34135/

This following thread also has lots of good discussion on this subject with a decent look at Parker’s rise at the end: https://www.discussfastpitch.com/threads/riseball-ball-rotation-axis.32691/


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[radness]

A wise coach once told me; “the best way to hit a rise ball is to not swing at it”

I would rather CRUSH a riseball than have to deal with a gnarly change up.
Other hitters are the opposite.
________________________

To the OP
Are you trying to design your daughters pitching style?
"She will be an __A_or_B__ type of pitcher?"

My suggestion on goals,
*Control and Location.

How she develops ability to spin or create speed will put her in one category or the other. Gunner or junk.
*in either case control and location win games.

Just sayin'
Not all pitchers who can throw hard have great control or movement.
Ability to throw spin with movement but wild wont have good results.

Start with finding the strikezone, and develop control & locations.
Add change up.
Then go into other pitches to own locations without throwing a straight pitch.

Cannot pre-determine or design what she will be good at. Have seen pitchers forced to work relentlessly on a pitch they sucked at. Instead of trying another pitch they ended up using as a go to.

Let her developing talent lead the direction, dont try to say
"You will be this __A_or_B__" in the beginning.

*Remember pitching gets harder when its not about the strike zone, and becomes about making batters miss!

Enjoy your softball adventure!

 

[Westwind]

I thought you were joking (maybe I misunderstood, which is common for me!). Anyway, the first post in this thread shows a backspin rise : https://www.discussfastpitch.com/threads/barnhill.34135/

This following thread also has lots of good discussion on this subject with a decent look at Parker’s rise at the end: https://www.discussfastpitch.com/threads/riseball-ball-rotation-axis.32691/

Thanks for the links! Those are very good.

I actually went looking for some game footage on YouTube that shows the pitch speed with the score but most of what I found was highlight reels that had the score/speed removed.

I did find a little- here was my problem.... I couldn’t tell what pitch/spin she was throwing I could only see trajectory, (many here could tell you exactly what she is throwing pitch by pitch but I can’t). What I noticed right away is that she changed speeds a lot. It seems like when I watched her on tv over the years, her rise balls at/above the zone were slower than some of her pitches that were called strikes. Maybe I have that wrong too, who knows. I think maybe that’s where I got the crazy idea in my head that she throws slower than a Garcia etc.

One thing I can tell you- in person you could tell her riseball had backspin. Her ball had that look- the “float” you get when you set up a good pitching machine to spin the ball backwards. It looks so different in person compared to the partial backspin or bullet riseballs most throw.

 

[_MIA_]

Fair enough, and you're entitled to your opinion. Call me crazy but I just believe that there are "late bloomers" in pitching.... as if 12 is considered a late bloomer.

I do think it's a fair point though that, it'd different today than yesteryear. There are 1000's of pitching coaches (good and bad) out there who SHOULD be teaching kids correctly. Moreover, teaching them why they are constantly missing inside, or outside or unable to hit their spots. When I was kid, I didn't have that. I just had to figure it out and most of the guys in the men's league didn't know how to teach it either. This is why I put a very special emphasis on the "Why does the ball go this way, that way, high or low" in my opening lessons with kids. If they know why and how it happens, it makes it much easier to fix. If you don't know why you keep throwing inside to RH batters, you won't know how to fix it. But that's just me.

All that said, 12 yrs old is WAYYYY too young to make that kind of prediction on someone's pitching trajectory. I was pitching since I was 8? 9? 10? I don't remember, and I was no where near able to locate it where i wanted at 12., I turned out ok. Also, You have to remember a 12U pitcher can be 11 yrs old. This means she's 1 year removed from pitching with an 11" ball. Even if we're talking about someone 2 years removed, it's still a big difference. And if you don't think there is a BIG difference between an 11" and 12" ball to a young lady.... you have another thing coming. To many of them, with smaller hands in particular, it's like asking them to pitch a basketball. It feels that much bigger. For many kids, it's like starting over. This is a lot of the reason why I won't work on pitches with someone using an 11" ball, even someone who you can see just "has it" and is going to be head and shoulders above her peers.

Bill

Plus kids are still growing at that age..trying to nail down mechanics (or consistency of mechanics) when still growing is like trying to hit a moving target. My DD doesn't pitch but I see it with her in her hitting

 

[sluggers]

Riseballs can be hit... Riseballs don't "jump" nearly as much if a batter knows that the pitcher is throwing a riseball.

As @Hillhouse said, the key is to pick the pitcher. At lower levels, pitchers and coaches tend to fall into a pattern.

True story: There was an all-state riseball pitcher. She had a nice rise and threw around 60MPH.

We found a video of a game she pitched. She followed a formula--she threw fastballs until she got her first strike strike and then threw mostly riseballs after she got a strike. She would also throw a change maybe every six or seven batters. Every batter would get two or three riseballs.

In preparation for the game, my DD (an ex-pitcher) threw the kids riseballs at batting practice. The key that helped them was "stay on top of the riseball"--that helps correct swinging under the pitch. Most of the batters never could hit the rise...but, about 3 of the better hitters got the hang of it. One kid (now playing D1 ball) got really good at hitting riseballs.

We told the weak hitters to attack the first pitch, and lay off all the high stuff. The strong hitters were sitting on the riseball.

We scored 3 runs on her in the first two innings, and then she got frustrated. She started shaking off pitches. Everytime she shook off a pitch, she would throw a riseball. So, for the last four innings of the game, the batters knew almost every pitch. We didn't have to tell the kids anything.

She still struck out 14 people, but we scored 8 runs on her--which is the most anyone scored on her during that season.