Two Seamers

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Feb 3, 2010
5,752
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Pac NW
this is one convincing optical illusion :)



I think I counted 4 revolutions of the ball. Over that distance, would that be close to a knuckle? Would the break be as dramatic if the ball was thrown without the spit grip at full RPM, with the same spin orientation?
 
Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
Here is a clip of a knuckleball...it moves for the same reasons a 2 seam fastball moves....it ain't spin either.

did I already post this earlier in the thread? if so then forgive an old man....

dickey-rhymes-hd.gif

This and the Garcia clip are a couple of my all time favs. Gascoigne's off-speed, curve thingy is another!
 
Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
Technically it is which finger(s) come off the ball last that causes the change in movement. Which to your point is accomplished by finger pressure. When toying with finger pressure it is not always about increasing the pressure. When possible it is more desirable to reduce the pressure as increasing pressure may reduce velocity. In addition to orientation of the fingers, do not ignore the thumb. Changing the position of the thumb can also make a difference. As with any pitch you will need to play around with the positioning and the pressure to get consistent movement. Some pitchers get immediate results, for others it takes some time. Keep in mind that finger pressure is not a 2 seam thing, it affects every pitch thrown.

Love this post. I hope folks don't skim by this one, failing to realize how important these points are to creating movement pitches. Finally figuring out BoardMembers corkscrew curve really made this come to life for me.
 
Apr 28, 2014
2,316
113
DD's last piitching coach taught her to throw the tailing fast ball last year. Partially because she was struggling with slowing down her change up. The first time she threw it properly I knew it would be a great pitch for her. It moved like the Garcia clip. I was shocked. After seeing fast balls for 2 years seeing something like that was shocking. Today she uses the pitch quite a bit. She commands it well. I asked her about it tonight. She told me that she aims for the catchers left knee high side and the ball lands low and near the catchers right foot.
 
Sep 15, 2015
98
33
I think I counted 4 revolutions of the ball. Over that distance, would that be close to a knuckle? Would the break be as dramatic if the ball was thrown without the spit grip at full RPM, with the same spin orientation?

It is close to a knuckleball (which doesn't rotate at all, or turns less than a full revolution during flight). That's the beauty of a splitter in baseball; it is a pitch that has a similar "dancing" effect to a knuckleball (an abrupt down and in or down and out), but can be thrown closer to fastball velocity and can be learned by conventional (non-knuckleball) pitchers. If thrown without the splitter grip "at full RPM," the pitch would be an ordinary two-seam fastball that sinks and runs to the pitcher's throwing-arm side (like the DeGrom and Colon pitches). What makes the Garcia pitch interesting is that it sinks and runs to Garcia's glove side, demonstrating that something other than the orientation of the spin causes the movement--namely a pressure gradient created by the orientation of the seams, as I understand the earlier discussion. (Anecdotally, that explanation makes a lot of sense, because it not only accounts for the increased movement that baseball pitchers realize just by switching from a four-seam to a two-seam grip, but also why pitching a scuffed or cut baseball exacerbates that movement.)

So here is a very novice question that I have had since I started to catch my daughter (and is somewhat related, I hope, since this thread deals with physics and analogies to baseball spin). Can "bullet spin" ever form the basis for an effective movement pitch in softball, and if not, why not? In baseball "bullet spin" is just called "slider spin," and once a pitcher throws hard enough it results in a breaking pitch (a slider) that is very easy to learn and obviously effective if located properly.
 

JJsqueeze

Dad, Husband....legend
Jul 5, 2013
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safe in an undisclosed location
Ken-

I had been meaning to respond to your post but the new guy beat me to it and said everything I was going to say. Even the part about a scuffed ball or a spitball ala Gaylord Perry. Basically, a paradigm of spin only causing break is just wrong. It does not explain the knuckle, scuff, splitter, two seam fastball or spitball. But if you add rough/smooth side gradient effects then all pitches fit nicely within the framework. Low spin pitch like the Garcia splitter is breaking because of rough/smooth gradient. More spin would actually decrease the break in this case as it would create more magnus force that has a component acting to push the ball to the right in the case of the Garcia pitch.

I am really fascinated by this stuff, the slider is the next pitch I want to fully understand. My understanding of the spin is that it is kind of a bulletty 4 seam pitch that kind of has a sideways component but I can't find any slo motion clips of it that show the seams well. I am hoping a few get captured during the playoffs this year.

As for the bullet spin being a foundation of a breaking pitch, I don't think a straight up bullet spin pitch can do anything to break unless it is in that less than 1 revolution area of a knuckleball. I do think that there are some ball orientations that are slightly off axis that could break with mostly bullet spin.
 
Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
jfitch,
Welcome to DFP! New member is in charge of coffee! Thank to you and JJ for the info.

My .02:
Usually, a bullet, or semi-bullet spin goes hand-in-hand with a good release. It is an indicator, or result of good foundational mechanics.

That said, starting with semi-bullet spin as the first pitch (fastball) until good mechanics are ingrained--the athlete has a good foundation to build from. Going from there, I think the bullet spin can effectively work for a rise. With a touch more emphasis on whipping the fingers under the ball and possibly a different follow through, you can get semi-backspin with little effort. Beyond that, I don't think the bullet spin lends itself well for developing other spins.

You have to start somewhere, so the FB/semi-bullet spin is a great place to start.

Ken
 
Jul 10, 2014
1,283
0
C-bus Ohio
I would think the bullet spin would have the least "dance" to it. It's no different than throwing a football (mentioned elsewhere) - more spin, more stability along the flight path, less movement.
 

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