To swim or not to swim glove hand

[Laphoneman]

What does that mean, low approach? What does that have to do with the cause of a crow hop?

Bill

At LSU the last couple of years I started noticing with Carlie Hoover they get real low almost crouched down at the beginning of the pitch. Then explode towards home plate. Last year Gorsuch crouched down at the beginning and exploded up creating a leap and sometimes got so high it turned into a crow hop. Her drive knee was also turning out to 3rd. This year I can tell she is exploding towards home and staying low it really looks uncomfortable to me but her knee is staying straighter and the leap is gone. I tried this motion of crouched down and did not feel it would gain an advantage I don’t know if this is a coached move at LSU just noticed a lot of pitchers at LSU do it.

 

[Hillhouse]

At LSU the last couple of years I started noticing with Carlie Hoover they get real low almost crouched down at the beginning of the pitch. Then explode towards home plate. Last year Gorsuch crouched down at the beginning and exploded up creating a leap and sometimes got so high it turned into a crow hop. Her drive knee was also turning out to 3rd. This year I can tell she is exploding towards home and staying low it really looks uncomfortable to me but her knee is staying straighter and the leap is gone. I tried this motion of crouched down and did not feel it would gain an advantage I don’t know if this is a coached move at LSU just noticed a lot of pitchers at LSU do it.

I will respectfully disagree with that being the cause of the crow hop. Moreover, from the video clip I've seen of Gorsuch throwing her perfect game, I didn't see a crow hop at all. I saw a leap. Yes, technically both are illegal but for whatever reason it seems that one is more egregious of a crime than the other. Her toes seemed to me to be pointing down during the pushing making a crow hop, by it'd definition, impossible. All of that said, I don't think LSU is teaching this.... but they may not be doing much to curb it either. Perhaps they're just doing what most everyone else is doing. Kind of like getting caught on the highway speeding but you claim you're just keeping up with traffic. Or, maybe they need a fresh set of eyes to see things. It's not uncommon for PC's to overlook things a student is doing out of familiarity. It does happen. The coach will have to reevaluate things if she's getting dinged illegal, that's for sure. Just like a pitcher has to make adjustments to whatever strikezone an umpire has, you gotta play by the rule the umpires will call and enforce.

Bill

 

[Laphoneman]

I will respectfully disagree with that being the cause of the crow hop. Moreover, from the video clip I've seen of Gorsuch throwing her perfect game, I didn't see a crow hop at all. I saw a leap. Yes, technically both are illegal but for whatever reason it seems that one is more egregious of a crime than the other. Her toes seemed to me to be pointing down during the pushing making a crow hop, by it'd definition, impossible. All of that said, I don't think LSU is teaching this.... but they may not be doing much to curb it either. Perhaps they're just doing what most everyone else is doing. Kind of like getting caught on the highway speeding but you claim you're just keeping up with traffic. Or, maybe they need a fresh set of eyes to see things. It's not uncommon for PC's to overlook things a student is doing out of familiarity. It does happen. The coach will have to reevaluate things if she's getting dinged illegal, that's for sure. Just like a pitcher has to make adjustments to whatever strikezone an umpire has, you gotta play by the rule the umpires will call and enforce.

Bill

I knew you were going to respond that way. And I agree with your analysis. My original comment was about LSU teaching a crow hop. And if you will look up a video of Gorsuch from last year and compare it to this year you can see last year she leaped so high that the timing would get out of whack and sometimes she would land again (crow hop) before finishing the pitch. I was making an ataboy to Gorsuch for all the progress she has made maybe she’s still not perfect but much progress. The head coach is the PC so if she is coaching the crouch it’s her team her decision. My point was if you crouch down that low you better explode low because if you come up your going to leap.

I hope all is well with you and your family.

 

[uncdrew]

I don't address swim. I encourage a good drive and ask the kids to use the glove to assist the drive and whip. Up together/down together. Drive out hard towards the target with the backs of the hands and pull down together. javasource has a different take on this and I think it's worth checking out the DM thread and his videos. Like BoardMember and many others, he doesn't focus on fixing swim, but on improving drive mechanics. The glove side will do what it needs to do to balance out and work with the whole body. Same kinda deal with drive foot turn: don't try to cure a symptom--address the cause.

We work on the glove hand, for one of the reasons you mention. The "up together, pull down together". The pull down is stronger when you don't swim. Pulling down from in front of you is a stronger (and more balanced with the throwing arm) pull than when you're pulling down from from the side.

I don't feel it's a big deal, but do think done a certain way can be better than swimming.

 

[uncdrew]

I should have just "liked" this post and left it at that.

~~~~~~

The idea should be NOT to swim. We want the glove to stay as close as possible to staying on top of the stride leg. But, it will NEVER stay on top. It will fall behind or "swim" but we need to reduce the swim as much as possible.

#1. the idea should be to have as much if not ALL of your body going in one direction as possible. Swimming pulls the body off line and threatens the straight explosion.

#2. Think of a jump ball in basketball, We need both arms to explode upward to the target (the ball) we don't go higher by swimming with one arm.

#3. Swimming USUALLY means the hands separated very early, probably from a backswing, in the motion. Why wouldn't you want both arms pushing straight to the target, which will help enable to hide the ball from the batter? And will keep most of the body going forward.

#4. Pitchers who swim TOO MUCH will throw a lot of pitches to the glove side. This is a result of the body not staying lined up with the target due to the glove pulling offline.


Bill

 

[cnardone]

After watching this for the first time, I always thought of a little movement as "Whirl" and is to be expected. But "Swimming" is when the "Whirl" has gone off the rails and starts pulling the pitcher off line as @Hillhouse describes in point 4.

 

[Tango]

DD has some swimming in her pitching motion. She has always been a strike machine and we tried to correct it but really didn't worry about it much. After having some vascular problems in the glove side hand and identifying that her clavicle was out of place causing the vascular issues. We have worked very hard on the swimming motion. Still not fixed but better. Swimming for some kids can become a serious issue.

 

[uncdrew]

DD has some swimming in her pitching motion. She has always been a strike machine and we tried to correct it but really didn't worry about it much. After having some vascular problems in the glove side hand and identifying that her clavicle was out of place causing the vascular issues. We have worked very hard on the swimming motion. Still not fixed but better. Swimming for some kids can become a serious issue.

Interesting. Good to know. Hope she's back to 100% soon (if not already).

 

[Hillhouse]

After watching this for the first time, I always thought of a little movement as "Whirl" and is to be expected. But "Swimming" is when the "Whirl" has gone off the rails and starts pulling the pitcher off line as @Hillhouse describes in point 4.

That's an interesting video of Sarah. However, with the camera being slightly off to the side, it's hard to tell how far the glove hand is swimming. From what I see there, it doesn't look like it's swimming much at all. Remember, it's almost always going to swim a little, the idea is to make sure the glove hand doesn't pull the rest of the body off line. From that video clip, and I didn't watch the whole way through and I don't know if Rick was ok with what Sarah was doing or not. But from what I see, based off that camera angle, I wouldn't be concerned with a swim.

The thing I did see is that the glove hand is not helping Sarah very much. I don't see the glove hand helping the forward momentum. When she does her backswing, the glove hand stays at the waist and it doesn't push forward with the ball hand. This means she's not using the entire left side of her body for maximum push forward. Imagine jumping up in the air, or doing a broad jump forward.... both hands swing backward in the negative movement so that BOTH hands explode in the direction you're trying to jump. Now, this is not a Sarah Pauly thing. MOST girls who do the backswing don't use the glove hand to help themselves get a stronger push. Not only that but that early separation of hands which allows the pitcher to do the backswing, with the glove swinging backwards too allows hitters to get a very good view of the ball and grip on the ball.

Bill