Thoughts on front toss - an open posting to all of the HS coaches out there

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Sep 1, 2014
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Your dd has had some really good coaching!!!
Had to to overcome all of the wrong stuff I taught her over the years as I learned. Englishbey was great cut a lot of unnecessary slop out of her swing and taught her how to load. The Glasco’s taught her the leg kick. Jeff Edwards has taught her to be more sudden and to turn the barrel. They are all great coaches.
 
Sep 1, 2014
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Good stuff, Dan. We both know about HS coaches who make mistakes, don’t we? We use the 3 plate drill at home because it helps DD adjust to different pitch speeds. The challenge it creates for me as the front toss pitcher is to not rush my delivery. She needs to be loaded when I’m at the back of my arm swing much like a real pitcher would be, and I have to be consistent with my pitch velocity so that the distance is the only real variable that affects her timing. The three plates are set at 20, 15, and 10 feet, so nothing as close as what your DD’s HS coach did. The 20 foot distance feels like changeup speed, the 15 foot distance feels “normal” to her, and the 10 foot distance mimics a 65mph pitcher (according to her).

The challenge for you might be how incredibly different our DD’s loads are. As you know, mine doesn’t have the leg kick that yours does but still creates separation. The timing is just different. I think it’s great that you were able to come up with a workaround and that she has the ability to break her swing down into parts and still be successful. As always, I’d be happy to throw to her or your younger DD if you want to “stop by” the house sometime.


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That three plate drill is a great one. I did that with K’s little league team ahead of playing against a very good (fast) pitcher and it really helped the team - especially when they threw a slower pitcher to try to mess up the timing. Thanks for reminding me about that - greAt drill.
 
Sep 1, 2014
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I always show the ball and do a 35mph-ish front toss from about 25ft. I would think that 6-8ft is way too close and can mess with the timing of batters as you've seen. I always show the ball and always do a walk through style pitch (no windmill). I never work belt high and middle of the plate, always low outside, low inside, and high (at top of strike zone. To me, this is the best bang for the buck. Simulates pretty real world pitching and I can do 5-6 buckets easy before tiring.

My pitching mechanics are always the same and there are a lot of markers to start load, etc which is crucial. Just my .02
Yes that wAlk up front toss is very good for a hitter who is trying to time a pitcher. Agree on the markers
 
Sep 1, 2014
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Excellent observation and fix. Unfortunately, BP should as closely resemble game scenario as possible so practice can be helpful in improving game performance. Too many coaches develop BP hitters and not game hitters and, IMO, waste the players time with useless drills that doesn't translate into game performance improvement.
I promote pitching from game distance at game speed. Anything from close up at slower speeds results in batters continually being underneath the ball in games. ...good timing, but fouling off on the opposite side or straight back.
Yes, I Know what you mean. It took me about two weeks figure out what was going on. She worked 5 days at HS practice and completely changed her swing to all back all forward. I saw it on the weekend and worked with her to put separation and scap load and coil back into her swing. Then the next week she was back to all back and all forward again. So I sat down with her and asked her what she was doing at practice. Sure enough close-up front toss at full speed. The girls feel a bit of pressure to hit in practice and as a result she had to change her load in order to make contact.

That’s when we decided she would have the two swings - a BP swing and a game swing as I described.

But it’s not just HS. Travel teams sometimes do this and I have seen this done at College Camps as well - maybe not full speed but definitely too close without a cue to start the load - resulting in an all back all forward swing just to hit the ball. I recommend hitters have this BP swing in their arsenal so they can pull it off at a college camp or practice should coaches not give time to load properly.

Most college camps I have been to the live hitting station is manned by a current player on the team who does not understand time to load a momentum swing. Not all though- my DD went to one where the HC was watching and she stopped the front toss pitcher and said “wait she has a leg kick - first show ball, pull back slowly, then toss it through”. ... I was very impressed - it was Corrie Hill UT coach.
 
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Sep 1, 2014
85
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What do you mean when you say "all back all forward" swing?
No separation. The load may also be referred to by the movements involved, or “stride and separation”. That simply means that as we prepare to hit, we stride toward the pitcher with our front foot, and separate our hands from our body. Putting us in a loaded position and ready for our approach to contact.

All back all forward means that we didn’t create separation. And for my DD results in being way out in front, poor contact - usually a weak grounder or a ball off the top of the bat.

Separation creates a balanced powerful swing and gives you the ability to reaction to off-speed pitches. All back all forward cuts needed mechanics out of the swing.

My Desired separation: when stride foot goes forward, the scap should be pulled back (as in pulling back to throw a punch). Josh Donaldson has some good you tube videos where you can see this in slow motion.
 
Sep 1, 2014
85
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You're probably right, but every single pitcher they face in a game will have the ball over their head at some point.
Problem is that not many coaches can do the windmill effectively - many can’t even get a back then forward pitch over the plate. And that wastes a lot of practice time - very frustrating and then girls sometimes start swinging at stuff they shouldn’t out of frustration. I have seen coaches get frustrated that the girl isn’t swinging too. Back then forward, I can get 95pct of the pitches where I want them. I think the most important thing is to just make sure they are consistent (as mentioned above) so the batter can trigger their load process
 
Jul 29, 2013
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Yes, I Know what you mean. It took me about two weeks figure out what was going on. She worked 5 days at HS practice and completely changed her swing to all back all forward. I saw it on the weekend and worked with her to put separation and scap load and coil back into her swing. Then the next week she was back to all back and all forward again. So I sat down with her and asked her what she was doing at practice. Sure enough close-up front toss at full speed. The girls feel a bit of pressure to hit in practice and as a result she had to change her load in order to make contact.

That’s when we decided she would have the two swings - a BP swing and a game swing as I described.

But it’s not just HS. Travel teams sometimes do this and I have seen this done at College Camps as well - maybe not full speed but definitely too close without a cue to start the load - resulting in an all back all forward swing just to hit the ball. I recommend hitters have this BP swing in their arsenal so they can pull it off at a college camp or practice should coaches not give time to load properly.

Most college camps I have been to the live hitting station is manned by a current player on the team who does not understand time to load a momentum swing. Not all though- my DD went to one where the HC was watching and she stopped the front toss pitcher and said “wait she has a leg kick - first show ball, pull back slowly, then toss it through”. ... I was very impressed - it was Corrie Hill UT coach.
One of my dd's travel ball coaches used to stand close so mine developed that all back all forward, 100% committed swing in BP. And then the jack8$$ would throw a changeup so he could criticize her swing!
There are lots of baaaaddd coaches out there.
 

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