Third Out Appeal Call

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May 14, 2021
4
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This scenario happened in a local game. Umpires and rule experts please make your best call given the scenario below.

- Bases loaded one out.
- Team 1 places down a suicide squeeze.
- Team 2’s third baseman underhands ball to Catcher at home to force out for 2nd out.
- Team 2 Catcher throws to first base for double play; 3rd out is called.
- Team 1 runner from 2nd base rounding 3rd hesitates at 3rd base due to 3rd out being called then continues to run home.
- Team 2’s first baseman throws home and catcher tags out Team 1 runner although 3rd out has already been called at 1st base.
- Team 1 asks for an appeal to home plate umpire because first baseman was off the bag for the 3rd out.
- Team 1 wins the appeal; batter-runner is safe at first and all runners returned to the base occupied at the time of the 3rd out call.

- Team 2 argued that since the 3rd out at first was overturned on an appeal, then the player who got tagged out at home should be considered the 3rd out.

- Team 1 argues that the inning is over and play ceases once the 3rd out is called. Any play after the 3rd out call is invalid. The runner from 3rd to home would not have hesitated if the out at first was not called.
 
Jun 1, 2015
500
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This is the correct application.

Correct. Once an error in a call has been made, it's like doing a math problem - you go back to the point where you make the mistake and fix everything from there. You don't just fix the mistake but leave all the rest of the wrong work on your paper. Here, you go back to the incorrect call at 1B, rule the runner safe and put everyone back where they were when the call was made (umpire judgment here) - 2 outs on the field.

You're essentially going back to "that error in the math problem", correcting that line, and then restarting your work from that spot. At least that's the math teacher and umpire in me coinciding for a change. :)
 
Feb 13, 2021
880
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USSSA Rule 14 Sec 12 R. Rectify any situation in which an Umpire’s decision that was delayed or reversed has placed either team in jeopardy.

This is the rule that would govern this situation. With that being said, if the runner that started at 2B had been tagged on her way to the dugout because she thought there were already 3 outs, then I have an obvious call to replace her on 3B. Her actions were caused by the delayed call of safe at 1B on the BR. I question why she ran home if there were already a 3rd out called, unless she thought (or was told by base coach) that the 1B pulled her foot and there were only 2 outs. I have a hard time figuring out why she would have run home with 3 outs. How close was the play at the plate for the "4th out"? Did her delay at 3B make enough of a difference?

No matter how the umpires rule in this case, it is going to be a shirt show. But nothing in the rule says that you automatically replace the runners at last legally occupied base at the time of the apparent 3rd out.

Is it the most equitable solution? Most likely, yes. But something is gnawing at the back of my brain about why you have a play at the plate and how close was it. I can see an argument for allowing the apparent 4th out to stand.

I know this isn't the OP, but let's change the situation up a bit. Rather than the "4th out" being at the plate, let's make it on R1 at third base and the ball is overthrown out of play. I can certainly see an argument for allowing ALL subsequent play to stand, and remaining runners are awarded 2 bases from the time of the throw (i.e. R1 scores and BR ends up at 3B[EDIT: possibly 2B depending on where she was at the time of the throw]). By the same argument, you would keep the ball live and action stands in the original question.

This is truly a "had to be there" situation. Also, presuming this is a 2-umpire crew, who is the BU appealing to on the pulled foot? PU should have been on or near 1B line extended and had a very poor angle AND should have had an eye on R2 making sure she touched 3B.
 
Last edited:
Feb 13, 2021
880
93
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After rereading the original post, just how fast was R2? She got from 2B to home in the time it took to field a bunt, retire R3, retire the BR at 1B AND she hesitated at 3B? The out at the plate had to develop fast enough to allow time to retire the BR at 1B.
 
May 14, 2021
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The play at the plate was very close, enough so that no hesitation would’ve been an easy run scored. Everyone on the field stopped, even the defense because of out 3 but for some reason once the runner on 3rd base started running again the defense continued playing.

BU was behind SS with bases loaded. PU at home watching the force out at home, then the double play throw to 1st base. PU was only one with the angle down the line to see foot off the bag.
 
Feb 13, 2021
880
93
MI
BU was behind SS with bases loaded. PU at home watching the force out at home, then the double play throw to 1st base. PU was only one with the angle down the line to see foot off the bag.

From 2020 USA Umpire Manual

BASES LOADED

STARTING POSITION: SHADE RUNNER AT 2B. START BEHIND OR OFF THE 2B SIDE OF THE SECOND BASEMAN AND SQUARE TO THE PLATE. THIS POSITION SHOULD BE ADJUSTED BASED ON THE DEPTH AND LOCATION OF THE SECOND BASEMAN OR ANY ADDITIONAL PLAYERS POSITIONED IN THE INFIELD. GO TO THE READY POSITION AT THE START OF THE PITCH.

GROUND BALL TO THE INFIELD: P - Move out from behind the plate toward the holding zone in foul ground to an area where you have an unobstructed view of all four elements and read the play. Be prepared to move as the play develops as you are responsible for any play on the lead runner at 3B and any play at the plate. B - Let the ball take you to the play. Responsible for any play at 1B, 2B and the last runner into 3B.

BU was in the wrong starting position. BU has call at 1B. If the throw for the second out came from the plate area, which direction did the throw pull the fielder? Inside, outside or up the line (towards the plate)? By the sound of this so far, umpires botched the coverage, BU should have had the initial call at 1B. It sounds like you are saying PU had the call AND the angle for the pulled foot, if that is the case, who did they appeal to?
 
Oct 11, 2018
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From 2020 USA Umpire Manual

BASES LOADED

STARTING POSITION: SHADE RUNNER AT 2B. START BEHIND OR OFF THE 2B SIDE OF THE SECOND BASEMAN AND SQUARE TO THE PLATE. THIS POSITION SHOULD BE ADJUSTED BASED ON THE DEPTH AND LOCATION OF THE SECOND BASEMAN OR ANY ADDITIONAL PLAYERS POSITIONED IN THE INFIELD. GO TO THE READY POSITION AT THE START OF THE PITCH.

GROUND BALL TO THE INFIELD: P - Move out from behind the plate toward the holding zone in foul ground to an area where you have an unobstructed view of all four elements and read the play. Be prepared to move as the play develops as you are responsible for any play on the lead runner at 3B and any play at the plate. B - Let the ball take you to the play. Responsible for any play at 1B, 2B and the last runner into 3B.

BU was in the wrong starting position. BU has call at 1B. If the throw for the second out came from the plate area, which direction did the throw pull the fielder? Inside, outside or up the line (towards the plate)? By the sound of this so far, umpires botched the coverage, BU should have had the initial call at 1B. It sounds like you are saying PU had the call AND the angle for the pulled foot, if that is the case, who did they appeal to?
Ed. Check your definition of BU starting position. I think you are describing position of a BU when there are 3 umps. In 2 man BU should be behind SS shading 3B. OP doesn't state if 2man or 3man but I'd assume 2. Also Op doesn't imply PU made call at 1B. That would never be the correct mechanic. The OP says they appealed (asked for help) from PU, not that he/she made the original call.
 
Feb 13, 2021
880
93
MI
Ed. Check your definition of BU starting position. I think you are describing position of a BU when there are 3 umps. In 2 man BU should be behind SS shading 3B.
You are correct, I pasted from the wrong entry and was in error. (For some reason I had a brain-lock and posted SP mechanic)

Also Op doesn't imply PU made call at 1B. That would never be the correct mechanic.

OP doesn't state who made the call at first, I was referring to this :

PU at home watching the force out at home, then the double play throw to 1st base. PU was only one with the angle down the line to see foot off the bag.

from reply #6.

The use of 'appeal' is problematic as this is NOT an appeal. Asking an umpire to go for help on a pulled foot should only be occurring during a dead-ball. While I agree putting R2 back at 3B is most likely the most equitable decision, I still feel that the ultimate resolution SHOULD be to let the play conclude naturally, then get together if asked.

If, as was stated in #6, all play had ceased, then R2 attempts to advance home. I do not see how the umpires erroneous call of 'out' put the runner at a disadvantage. Her actions began another chain of events that resulted in her being called out. If anything, the defense would have relaxed, thinking they already had 3 outs. Again, a 'had to be there' scenario.
 
May 14, 2021
4
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BU did make the call at 1st base. The appeal was made to PU due to foot coming off bag. BU didn’t have angle to see foot off bag
 

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