The Drop Ball

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Oct 4, 2018
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Your DD is very young and has plenty of time to develop a drop ball. My advice would be not to rush it. Focus on building her fastball mechanics, velocity, and command. You can go a long way with a good fastball and change up. My DD is about to turn 14 and we've been at this about 4.5 years. We are still honing her fastball and change up and started working on the drop ball a couple months ago. You have to walk before you can run. Girls adding pitches too quickly, in my view, is a common problem. And, in reality, no girl is likely to ever actually command more than 3 pitches.

As far as the change up, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. However, I think what Sarah Pauly was suggesting is that at higher levels of play that so-called flip change may be less effective, particularly if her arm action is perceptibly different and the ball comes in high and sort of floats. Even at 14U, and definitely at 10U and 12U, I see very few girls that can command their change up, particularly of the flip variety. Not saying your DD can't or isn't, just that I haven't seen it work very well.

Good luck. As you've already figured out, this site is a great resource.

Well said. I agree with all of this.

That flip change. We worked on it for months and got pretty good. But we're so much more effective with the "other" kind. I'm hesitant to name it -- basically she grips it differently and pushes it more. Same delivery, same motion, same presentation. The combination of her arm and body looking like a fastball is coming and the 8 mph slower pitch fool batters regularly. She's had some stuck dead in their tracks, made others fall down, and most simply swing way too early. A good CU is a beautiful thing.

The flip change just had such a small margin of error. And I do think the delivery is different enough that it could one day be spotted by better hitters.

Our pitching instructor is ready to teach the drop ball when we are ready. We play with it a tad, but at 10 we still focus about 99% of our time in lessons and practice on fastball and change. Working on mechanics and location. Though my DD wants to learn all the pitches ASAP, I'm doing my best to hold them back a tad. We'll get there... although she's being taught a turnover drop, and I sometimes wonder if Bill's way is better (though I don't quite understand it fully).

The other thing about a 10U drop ball is that when pitching from 35 feet, you have a lot less distance for the spin to kick in and make the ball drop. This makes sense in my mind, though perhaps the science doesn't back it up.

And with her fastball topping out at 43 mph, it drops plenty. Thanks Isaac Newton.
 
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Aug 21, 2008
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There is plenty of evidence that some pitchers throw a drop with much more spin than their fastball. More spin = more drop.

Revfire measured drop ball spin for HS pitchers several years back. The average spin was 17. But, 5% of the pitchers had spins greater than 24. And, the best had spin rates close to 30. My DD's drop ball was hitting 28RPS and that was 10 years after she stopped pitching competitively.

A pitcher throwing a drop with a spin rate of 28RPS is going to have more drop than a kid throwing a drop with a spin rate of 17RPS. The kid with the 28RPS gets more movement.

View attachment 16518

Even if we were to concede that some pitchers throw more spin with a drop than a fastball, I would maintain that they don't need to change or alter their mechanics to do so. Obviously we don't have video of these 16 pitchers in this NFCA screen grab you sent to see it but I'd be willing to bet they simply threw the ball harder, used more whip, and just put more overall effort into the drop vs. the "fastball". If it's in the conscience mind to spin the ball hard, then they will likely do most other things even harder too during the pitch.

Moreover, the screen grab you showed here is from 2010. That's 10 years ago. An entire generation of pitchers has passed through. And, this website (and MANY other pitching coaches) have spread the word against using H/E mechanics. IMHO, if they did this measurement in 2020, with the assortment of better resources, more informed coaches than ever, I think more than 16 pitchers would have their RPS above 20. REAL pitching mechanics don't require a pitcher to change or alter their mechanics for different pitches. And if those mechanics are sound, fluid and correct, speed, spin, and movement are all going to increase a lot.

Sluggers, will say Kudos to your daughter for hitting 28 rps after 10 years of not pitching much. Especially considering nobody on this chart hit 28 RPS at all, and one would assume this stat thing was done in-season for effective results.

Bill
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
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.

As far as the change up, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. However, I think what Sarah Pauly was suggesting is that at higher levels of play that so-called flip change may be less effective, particularly if her arm action is perceptibly different and the ball comes in high and sort of floats. Even at 14U, and definitely at 10U and 12U, I see very few girls that can command their change up, particularly of the flip variety. Not saying your DD can't or isn't, just that I haven't seen it work very well.

If we're talking a "straight backflip" change up, I may agree. I personally modified mine to not only flip it backwards but to turn it over at the sametime. So, too much backflip and the ball will likely sail too high and be too slow. Too much of the turn over makes it go too low and is usually too fast. Both the flip and the turn need each other to balance the other. As an added bonus, when this is done correctly, the hand will finish up and across the body similar to the finish of throwing a rise or a drop. So the batter they see the same exact mechanics.

So, I don't know. I think I did ok with my change up in my career and this is how I threw mine.

I'm not 100% convinced hitters would detect the straight backflip change, because it requires the mechanics to be identical to throwing fast or else the ball will end up bouncing 35 feet in. The backflip change up needs full speed arm circle and explosion to even make it to homeplate. The problem as I see it, with the straight backflip change is, it puts backspin on the ball making it float, defy gravity and not drop as much as other change ups. A change up left high is a no-no. Second, it can be too slow. Too much backflip takes TOO much speed off the ball. Combine that with hanging it in the zone, the hitters will have a chance to reload and crush it. I have seen some kids who can throw a straight backflip change up with perfection, even keeping the ball low with the backspin. For whatever reason, they can just do it perfectly and not have those 2 negatives of it floating or being too slow. But those kids are few and far between.

Bill
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
Sluggers, will say Kudos to your daughter for hitting 28 rps after 10 years of not pitching much. Especially considering nobody on this chart hit 28 RPS at all, and one would assume this stat thing was done in-season for effective results.

Bill

Not surprising, really. As I said in my post, the chart was data from an NFCA college exposure camp for HS kids.

In college, my DD lived and died with her drop ball. She practiced almost every day for four years throwing that pitch. My DD can throw the pitch in her sleep. My DD *should* be better than every 17YOA HS pitcher and most college pitchers when it comes to throwing a drop.
 
Sep 19, 2018
928
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The other thing about a 10U drop ball is that when pitching from 35 feet, you have a lot less distance for the spin to kick in and make the ball drop. This makes sense in my mind, though perhaps the science doesn't back it up.
MY dd was going back and forth between the 11/35 and 12/40 last fall. She picked up the drop pretty quickly with the 12/40. She could not get the 11/35 to drop. With the 11/35 she did often get down and away (to RHB) action on her FB.
 

radness

Possibilities & Opportunities!
Dec 13, 2019
7,270
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(* Recognizing people have success throwing the same pitches with different mechanics should be acknowledged! As well taught by different successful pitchers/instructors with outstanding results! )
 
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Nov 9, 2019
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This the 2nd person I've heard of say one (or both) of the Pauly's are absolutely against the flip change, 100%. That's kind of sad to me. While I think the flip change is the HARDEST of them all to throw, it can be modified to be much easier and less dangerous for many pitchers. By dangerous I mean, floating in the zone and hard to control. To tell someone to absolutely get rid of fit without a way to modify it making it better is a bit much. THERE IS NO WRONG CHANGE UP. Unless she's slowing down to telegraph it. If she can throw one with a back flip, consistently for strikes and keep it low... then that's your change up regardless of who your coach is. All these people with their "circle change grips" and stuff... what the heck is that anyway? Ok that tells me how you held the ball, it says nothing of how you released it and didn't give it power making it go slow. And someone was also partially right, the flip change sometimes has no "brush". But, when you throw a change up, the goal is to try making the ball go slower without slowing the body down. This means you have to take away the things that make the ball go fast, whip, BI, follow through, etc. If you can do that without altering the motion 100% then do it.

As for the drop, as I've said over and over... the hardest thing to explain to someone who's never pitched or is just learning the drop is.... the hardest thing is the simplicity of it. People want to make it 10x harder than it is. If you have forward spin on the ball, you have a drop. Now it's about release point. MOST girls who throw a "fastball" (and their catchers) will say their "fastball" often times (most times) has a big drop to it yet they don't know how they did it. All they did is let the ball go sooner. That's it. Mystery solved. They didn't pull up like a lawn mower starting, turn it over after the release, step real short to "Get on top of the ball" or anything different. They simply let the ball go earlier and the trajectory out of the hand, combined with the forward spin makes it go down. When you have forward spin and it's not going down, it means you are over throwing and your release point is off making it go FLAT. And fastball+flat= homerun. I will not understand why anyone thinks the drop and fastball mechanics are mutually exclusive. They're the same. Why anyone would want to have a "Fastball" is a mystery to me... keep it flat or make it move? Hmmmmm. I'll take less HR's and movement pitches for $200 please Alex. You don't need to do anything magical or special to learn a drop, take the forward spinning "fastball" and teach her to let it go earlier. That's it. You may wanna wear some catcher gear while she figures that release point out as there will be 38 ft pitches coming your way. But once she gets it..... look out. Don't let anyone sell you on stepping short, pulling up on the ball (for more spin.. yea right) or anything that deflects from the mechanics she's using to throw her "fastball" now. If she's got the right spin now, you're 80% there.

Riseballs win you games... drop balls win you CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Bill
DD pitches, but say's she love's to see a flip change thrown to her as she is able to see that change from the position of pitchers hand. Don't know if all pitcher's throw it the same but all she has faced show the back of hand at release. Thoughts?
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
Not surprising, really. As I said in my post, the chart was data from an NFCA college exposure camp for HS kids.

In college, my DD lived and died with her drop ball. She practiced almost every day for four years throwing that pitch. My DD can throw the pitch in her sleep. My DD *should* be better than every 17YOA HS pitcher and most college pitchers when it comes to throwing a drop.

Well, I'm only about 2-3 years removed from throwing my last pitch in a local league back home. And 4-5 years away from pitching in anything remotely competitive. Yesterday was the 2nd time in 2 weeks that I threw live batting practice for a local college team heading for Florida for 10 days and I can absolutely tell that I didn't have the same rotation on the ball as I used to. Even through I wasn't trying to throw with everything I got, I still found it hard to spin the ball the way I used to. So I think your DD's accomplishment is more than you might think.

Bill
 
Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
DD pitches, but say's she love's to see a flip change thrown to her as she is able to see that change from the position of pitchers hand. Don't know if all pitcher's throw it the same but all she has faced show the back of hand at release. Thoughts?

Not sure I totally followed your question. But, if you're asking if some people telegraph their flip change by showing the back of the hand, the answer is yes. Many do. (another reason not to drop out of your glove for a backswing). But many pitchers telegraph their riseball too. And their drop. All pitches are readable if you know what you're looking for and know how to do it. Someone who drops out of their glove for a backswing with the back of the hand already turned, exposing the pitch, deserves to have the ball ripped for showing it in advance.

Bill
 
May 15, 2008
1,913
113
Cape Cod Mass.
DD pitches, but say's she love's to see a flip change thrown to her as she is able to see that change from the position of pitchers hand. Don't know if all pitcher's throw it the same but all she has faced show the back of hand at release. Thoughts?

You are talking about the backhand change which is different than the flip change, at least in my book it is. The backhand is not a very good pitch. It's easy to detect, as your daughter knows, it's difficult to control and it's too slow. When I teach the flip I want the fingers go around the outside of the ball as the hand 'flips' over, this often results in some curve side spin. The hand should continue after release and finish in a way that looks like a fastball release.
 

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