Teaching to spin

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Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
I see fastball mentioned in thread after thread but the spin that this pitch has, or should have, is never brought up or specified.

I think a fastball is the whatever release and resulting spin that a pitcher uses for her fastest pitch and the one she can spot the best. I believe that a ball released with the thumb/palm oriented about 45 degrees from the flight path is coming off the fingertips at their fastest point in the release.

For a girl that comes to me saying her coach wants a screw ball, I tell her to throw her FB inside. So far, they've been happy with it.
 
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Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
I have taught a "rollover" as an off-speed drop. Ultimately, I like a 12/6 drop, a good change and a riseball, and would save on off-speed drop for an advanced pitcher looking to change speeds.

For the off-speed drop, the cues vary, but we play around with the ball releasing off of the ring or pinky fingertips. One cue can be the feel of rolling your palm over the ball. The axis has to be perpendicular for this to be effective. Otherwise, it's a 240 pitch...
 
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Oct 26, 2019
1,375
113
@Ken B do you think a pitcher can survive at a high level with just a fastball and a change up if both pitches are plus pitches? Some baseball pitchers have survived with one pitch (like Mariano Rivera), but I can only think of relievers/closers. Several come to mind that only had 2 pitches though - something hard and something soft.
 
Feb 3, 2010
5,752
113
Pac NW
@Ken B do you think a pitcher can survive at a high level with just a fastball and a change up if both pitches are plus pitches? Some baseball pitchers have survived with one pitch (like Mariano Rivera), but I can only think of relievers/closers. Several come to mind that only had 2 pitches though - something hard and something soft.

No. Even if a pitcher has gas and can paint the outside edges of the strike zone, good hitters will win. A good drop and/or rise separate the good from the great.

That said, I've seen some pretty dang good pitchers who throw a rise, curve and/or screw, but each are essentially a spiral pitch thrown to different locations! Sometimes it's the commentator just saying: inside=screw, outside=curve, etc., but I've often seen the pitcher contorting this way and that.

Hoping Hillhouse jumps in on this one. I love his approach to keeping it simple and efficient.
 
May 15, 2008
1,913
113
Cape Cod Mass.
My point in asking about fastball spin is that, like Ken B, I think that it is different for each pitcher. Cat O throws a bullet spin fastball, she calls it corkscrew. So when a pitcher, or someone else, talks about having a fastball the spin should be clarified. Isn't a 12-6 fastball a drop?
 
Ok because Im OP trying to learn my DD throws a spiral fastball and a 1-7 drop if her stride toe is pointing to catcher. And a 10-4 that moves away from rhb If stride foot is at 45. I think someone said her hips closing to fast maybe causing this difference. Im trying to explain her hand has to be behind the ball at release for it to get a tru 6-12 spin. We played this weekend and she hit her spots really well. Our coach calls a lot of fastballs (14u) and most snuck by but her drop ball just seems to stay flat at the knees. Every once a in a while the ball will just dart down or away. When I ask her what she did different she says she doesn’t know. So there’s something Im missing. Because it happens to often to be a fluke. But she cant recreate it or notice what happened different. Her fastball is 54 her drop is 53-52 because she is trying to spin it faster and use forward thumb rotation than just whip through.
 
May 15, 2008
1,913
113
Cape Cod Mass.
A pitch thrown with a 10-4 axis of spin cannot break away from a right hand batter unless it has backspin and is a rise-curve. The 10-4 axis with topspin will break down and in a little to a righty (assuming the clock is from the pitcher's perspective). So check, is it backspin or top spin? There is the chance that there is some kind of two seam break happening which is always difficult to quantify.

For top spin having the palm behind the ball is important but the ball must also roll off the finger tips. If the ball comes off the side of the index finger, between it and the thumb, it will be bullet spin.

Trying to duplicate spin can be a frustrating experience. I think all pitching coaches have had pitchers throw a spin and not have any idea of how they did it, and so they are unable to replicate it. The same thing can happen while working on a spin, sometimes the spin will be better and the pitcher won't know what she did different. So a lot of it is trial and error. Just make sure that when working on spin that she can identify it from the mound, a lot of pitchers can't. Test her, have her throw a pitch and tell you what the spin was. It's best if she can see the spin and not rely on you or the catcher to tell her what it was.
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
My point in asking about fastball spin is that, like Ken B, I think that it is different for each pitcher. Cat O throws a bullet spin fastball, she calls it corkscrew. So when a pitcher, or someone else, talks about having a fastball the spin should be clarified. Isn't a 12-6 fastball a drop?

Your question is really about "game pitching" vs. "practice pitching". In a game, a pitcher is trying to fool batters. "Fooling batters" requires a combination of physics and perceptual psychology.

Real world example: My DD threw a 12-6 fastball with spin of about 15RPS. Her drop ball had a 12-6 spin of 28+ RPS. From a physics standpoint, yes, both pitches drop. But, from the perceptual point of view of the batter, the drop ball was a completely different pitch.

She threw in the 62MPH range usually, although she could hit 65MPH. She had great control. She changed speeds with her drop, meaning that she threw the drop from 55MPH to 65MPH.

She confused the batters all the time. A few batters hit her. Most couldn't.

That was my DD's formula....but, that isn't the only successful formula. If a pitcher has a good riseball, then the pitcher doesn't need a good drop ball. 15RPS down spin for a pitcher that has a great riseball is enough.

Osterman is the only female pitcher with a good drop and a good riseball....which is why she is on a completely different level than other pitchers (including my DD).
 
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Aug 21, 2008
2,359
113
Your question is really about "game pitching" vs. "practice pitching". In a game, a pitcher is trying to fool batters. "Fooling batters" requires a combination of physics and perceptual psychology.

Osterman is the only female pitcher with a good drop and a good riseball....which is why she is on a completely different level than other pitchers (including my DD).

2 fantastic points by Sluggers (dare I say the first time we've agreed? lol, I'm kidding). I'd add on to what you said by replying to a comment earlier, someone mentioned Osterman and fastball in the same sentence. I can guarantee you she does not throw a fastball. Nobody at her level does. GROWN MEN throwing 86mph from 42 feet away don't throw a fastball!!!!!!!!!!!

I know the turnover drop was mentioned again, even as an offspeed. I am against this for a couple reasons. First, the motion needs to change when throwing a turnover drop. MOST pitchers don't explode off the rubber the same way and the finish is 180 degrees opposite of what I want when a pitcher whips. 2. Personally I have found when I try changing my motion from pitch to pitch, it messes me up. I want routine. I want consistency. I wanna be smooth. Effortless. And I don't believe that happens when I change my stuff. If I want an offspeed drop, I"ll suck it back into my palm and throw it regular. The grip changes, the mechanics do not. Palm ball and squeezing of fingers takes about 10mph off, give or take.

Ray, what was the speed difference between your DD's drop and her "fastball"? Silly question maybe given the names of the pitches but did she throw her drop harder than the "fastball?"

Bill
 

sluggers

Super Moderator
Staff member
May 26, 2008
7,132
113
Dallas, Texas
Ray, what was the speed difference between your DD's drop and her "fastball"? Silly question maybe given the names of the pitches but did she throw her drop harder than the "fastball?"
Bill
Nothing but love...there is no question @Hillhouse gets results with his students. And, that is the main thing...teaching kids how to pitch effectively.

I don't know about my DD's speed in college. In HS, there was a difference...the drop was a little slower.

She became a much better pitcher in college (Was it because the fielders were better or was it because I wasn't around?). During her college games, she changed speeds all the time with her drop. She would throw a 55MPH drop, followed by a 60+MPH drop.
 

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