Swing Mechanics Post - Connection

[tom.guerry]

Hardy says that the way people tend to conceptualize the baseball swing is like the 1 plane swing around pattern. he does not say that MLB has a certain pattern. He does mention cues that go with one pattern vs the other, and the cues that are most similar to the MLB swing are the 2 plane golf/upright swing type cues:

-swing down
-stay behind the ball
-keep the shoulder in there
-stay tall
-arms and hips

etc.

see also:

Jim Hardy - Links of Utopia

In MLB, being "in position" means matching the plane of the swing to the pitch in the 2 plane "side-on" pattern.

 

[BusterT]

Why would a baseball/softball hitter want to swing down? The only hitters in softball I've ever seen swing down on the ball are speedy slappers trying to get 1+ seconds of hang-time on the ball. Do you have any links to video showing a "swing down" motion in softball or baseball (other than specialty hitting techniques)?

 

[Mark H]

Don't key on Tom's theory including that last paragraph. He's got his own involved theories mixing just about everyone's ideas but he doesn't actually instruct so...

 

[tom.guerry]

buster -

The "feel" of the MLB pattern is swinging down. A more analytical way of describing it in SCIENCE OF HITTING, Ted Williams, would be match plane of swing to pitch with the swing being a "slight uppercut" through contact.

So the swing starts down, then levels out and heads up.

Here is a recent batspeed.com video:

http://www.batspeed.com/media/Up_Swing_Contact.wmv

In the 2 plane golf and MLB patterns which are similar, the purpose of hitting down is to swing the bat in a very diferent plane from the level turn of the hips to create on the fly coil of the torso including a last quick controllable stretch which fires the bat quickly in a well matched plane.

In golf the swing down is by a long arm swing which must be shortened in the MLB hitting pattern.

In the MLB pattern the thing that gives the "swing down" feel is the "lateral tilt of the shoulders/scaps. Shoulders are tilted down in front early during inward turn of swing preparation and later they are untilted which creates the "blur" of the barrel behind the batter, a sign of "early batspeed"

In this Mankin video, the first hitters has already tilted the shoulders in the first frame.

 

[CoachB25]

Hardy says that the way people tend to conceptualize the baseball swing is like the 1 plane swing around pattern. he does not say that MLB has a certain pattern. He does mention cues that go with one pattern vs the other, and the cues that are most similar to the MLB swing are the 2 plane golf/upright swing type cues:

-swing down
-stay behind the ball
-keep the shoulder in there
-stay tall
-arms and hips

etc.

see also:

Jim Hardy - Links of Utopia

In MLB, being "in position" means matching the plane of the swing to the pitch in the 2 plane "side-on" pattern.

Tom, I want to get this straight. You've asserted time and time again that "Hardy says" the 2 plane golf swing is the MLB equivalent. (See hundreds of previous posts for numerous sites.) Scott called you out on that and stated that Hardy mentioned a comparison as more to the one plane golf swing. Now, you say that Hardy doesn't say that either 1 plane or 2 plane are equivalent. Then, you suggest that your assessment of what Hardy means is that the 2 plane golf swing is closer to the MLB swing. You cite "swing down" as an example BUT note that MLB hitters actually match the swing plane with the pitch plane. You mentions "stand tall" but most of us note that the MLB hitter "tilts" at the pelvic region. Am I reading your post correctly?

 

[tom.guerry]

B25-

I am very sorry you have misunderstood me all this time. It is important to make the following distinction.

I have never said that Hardy has said that the MLB swing is a 2 plane swing.

Hardy likens the 1 plane golf swing to a baseball swing where you swing the bat around the body, just bent over more to hit ball off ground - "baseball off the ground".

He has never described how he thinks MLB players swing.

Many people conceptualize the baseball swing as a one plane/swing around type motion, BUT when they get to MLB, they better have learned the "swing down" pattern to succeed as a power hitter.

I have always said that Hardy says there are 2 alternative patterns for these side-on connected swings, the one plane and the 2 plane.

The one plane is swinging around. The 2 plane is swinging down.

The one plane is torso/shoulder/middle-out dominant with the shoulders turning the arms/club in the shoulder plane.

The two plane is arm dominant swinging the club up and down (swing down)synched with the back and forth turn of the body with a level hip turn.

As Hardy points out, these are VASTLY different patterns, and mixing incompatible aspects of the two will ruin the swing.

See links above for explanation and video demonstration.



I have always said that the MLB pattern is a 2 plane/swing down pattern.

"PCRW" is, by blueprint/definition, a 1 plane swing, maintaining box to turn arms/bat in shoulder plane as described by Nyman.

That is NOT how MLB hitters swing.

The MLB/2 plane pattern has entirely different posture/connection/rotation/weight shift/adjustment/etc.

Let me know if this still remains unclear to you.

 

[CoachB25]

Tom,

I appreciate the sincerity of your response. I'd point again, but don't have the time presently, where Nyman comments on PCR(W) on BBF. I'd suggest that it is more of a result than a process. The process is the rub then with Paul and others.

Take care,

 

[tom.guerry]

B25-
here is the setpro link Nyman gives to explain the PCRW blueprint/specification:

What is PCR(W)?? - SETPRO Smart Power Training Forum

Note especially:

"Simplicity of the swing comes from understanding that a high-level swing is nothing more than making sure that the mass of the bat (sweet spot) travels in a plane of rotation parallel to a plane that is “scribed out” by a rod or stick passing through both shoulders extending in the same direction as would be the bat passing over home plate."

My experience with trying this 1 plane swing in basdeball is that it results in batdrag becoming an insurmountable problem.

See also

Active Hands and Bat Drag - Baseball Fever

Here, Nyman says:

"So the first step in correcting bat drag is to correct posture problems i.e. the player has to learn how to use postural adjustment.

"Once postural adjustment is understood that it simply a matter of staying connected at the initiation of the swingby the upper body i.e. maintaining the box."


I have participated in discussions with Nyman for about 10 years starting with discussions on Hudgen's site which included Mankin and Hodge.

Nyman and Hodge were extremely good in understanding the overhand throw.

After this, Nyman got interested in the swing and started out on a good track, trying to understand how throwing and the swing were similar. His initial thoughts lined up well with the 2 plane pattern, note in same post as above on batdrag/posture:

"In the early days of SETPRO and in my early adventures in motor learning and control the first textbook I purchased was entitled "Motor Learning and Performance, From Principles to Practice" by Richard A. Schmidt.

"Schmidt was a big proponent of motor programs i.e. the use the analogy of how a computer knows how to perform its functions under the direction of a program. The program concept was very prevailent in motor learning research from the 70s through the 80s. this motor learning approach was very attractive to me because of my background being in the design of computerized motion control systems.

"And in the early days of SETPRO I postulated the theory that there were two separate control programs going on one for the upper body and one for the lower body and that they cooperated with each other possibly under the supervision of a third program.

"Functionally this made sense i.e. you could identify with it but later on as I did more readings in the field of motor control and learning I do not subscribe to this multi-program belief anymore.

"My reason for bringing this up is to highlight the actions of the upper and lower body and when we talk about swinging the bat, the mechanism that exerts the greatest influence on the quality of the swing will be the upper body which includes the upper torso shoulders and arms hands bat.

"But what often gives the greatest problem is figuring out how to create the proper sequencing of lower body to upper body."


_____________

This approach actually makes the most sense and fits with the 2 plane swing where there is an upper and lower body program with the upper in charge of synching the 2 programs as described by Hodge for overhand throw in a way which applies as well to the swing (and 2 plane golf).

This is the so-called "arm action is king" approach to learning throwing and the swing together. Or as Candrea/Slaught say, if you can throw you can hit. Or as Yeager says, the top hand synchs the body,etc.

Nyman could not figure this out and he went on to develop the PCRW approach whose endpoint is the single plane pattern that is NOT like the overhand throw pattern or the MLB swing.

 

[Mark H]

B25-

I am very sorry you have misunderstood me all this time. It is important to make the following distinction.

I have never said that Hardy has said that the MLB swing is a 2 plane swing.

Hardy likens the 1 plane golf swing to a baseball swing where you swing the bat around the body, just bent over more to hit ball off ground - "baseball off the ground".

He has never described how he thinks MLB players swing.

Many people conceptualize the baseball swing as a one plane/swing around type motion, BUT when they get to MLB, they better have learned the "swing down" pattern to succeed as a power hitter.

I have always said that Hardy says there are 2 alternative patterns for these side-on connected swings, the one plane and the 2 plane.

The one plane is swinging around. The 2 plane is swinging down.

The one plane is torso/shoulder/middle-out dominant with the shoulders turning the arms/club in the shoulder plane.

The two plane is arm dominant swinging the club up and down (swing down)synched with the back and forth turn of the body with a level hip turn.

As Hardy points out, these are VASTLY different patterns, and mixing incompatible aspects of the two will ruin the swing.

See links above for explanation and video demonstration.



I have always said that the MLB pattern is a 2 plane/swing down pattern.

"PCRW" is, by blueprint/definition, a 1 plane swing, maintaining box to turn arms/bat in shoulder plane as described by Nyman.

That is NOT how MLB hitters swing.

The MLB/2 plane pattern has entirely different posture/connection/rotation/weight shift/adjustment/etc.

Let me know if this still remains unclear to you.

Analysis

 

[Mark H]

My experience with trying this 1 plane swing in basdeball is that it results in batdrag becoming an insurmountable problem.

.

Even if you do actually have much experience teaching hands on face to face taking responsibility on an ongoing basis for a young hitter's progress, which I've heard no indication of lo these many years, I'd say the above statement speaks more to your teaching abilities than it does your understanding. Steve's students have experienced no such linkage or cause and effect. Bat drag, Analysis see 20-24, is a problem with numerous possible solutions in terms of drills and teaching methods. Bat drag as defined by you is a non-event. Perhaps your medical practice doesn't allow the time or perhaps the practical application of this stuff is of limited interest to you but I think if you actually took long term responsibility for young hitters your worldview in terms of hitting would change.