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Swing Mechanics Post - Connection

Aug 1, 2008
2,173
0
ohio
This is to see how much we are alike or apart with this part of the swing.
This starts with rotation. Every part in unison,
except hips, hips in unison or a split second ahead.
That is not part of this poll.


A. Shoulders are turning, arms are turning , hands neutral, hips and shoulders are driving the bat, arms and hands along for the ride.
Hip, Shoulder driven swing



B. Shoulders are turning, arms are turning, but this time the lead arm / hand is pulling in unison with the hips and shoulders. Back arm hand is along for the ride.
Hip, shoulder, lead arm pulling swing



c. Same swing as the first 2, but lead arm pulling with the shoulders, along with the back arm pushing, Everything in unison.
Hip, Shoulder, lead arm pulling, back arm pushing swing.



D. All this is cra#, and you have no idea how a swing works





What swing do you believe in. Please vote A , B, C, or D

Please vote and put a short explanation why.



Thanks in advance :)
Straightleg
 

May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
straight leg -

Sorry, but I'm too verbose to just pick a letter.

I think there are 2 basic "high level" paterns, meaning swings where the bathead is fired by the monetum of the body staying connected without deceleration until contact.

One is the PCRW/Single plane patern which Nyman has popularized and described with his PCRW blueprint/specification.

See:

What is PCR(W)?? - SETPRO Smart Power Training Forum

The PRIMARY/PATTERN DETERMINING assumption here is that the shoulders turn the bat in the shoulder plane:

""Simplicity of the swing comes from understanding that a high-level swing is nothing more than making sure that the mass of the bat (sweet spot) travels in a plane of rotation parallel to a plane that is “scribed out” by a rod or stick passing through both shoulders extending in the same direction as would be the bat passing over home plate."


Acording to Nyman, the full"specification":

"One of the greatest values of the PCRW concept is that it allows for the first time a rational an easily understandable description/specification of what constitutes (the elements) of a high-level swing. it also does not require extensive baseball background and experience to understand and therefore can be used by parents of players in identifying activities and instructors who have the best chance of improving their son or players capabilities."

UNFORTUNATELY this is NOT the MLB patern and FORCES "bat drag", so it is not surprising the Nyman apporach starts with "how to fix the drag problem":

Nyman:

"So the first step in correcting bat drag is to correct posture problems i.e. the player has to learn how to use postural adjustment.

"Once postural adjustment is understood that it simply a matter of staying connected at the initiation of the swingby the upper body i.e. maintaining the box."

NEXT STEP

Nyman:

"Once we have establish posture, we then need to learn how to rotate. Because rotation is how the bat gets to the ball. The "something" that happens between posture and rotation all what I call/term connection. Connection is what high-level players have/achieve when they begin rotation of the upper body. Most players have what might be termed "slippage" between the rotation of their upper body and the "connection" to the handle of the bat. This slippage results in problem such as "bat drag" and "bat lag"."

This is entirely different from what happens in the MLB pattern where "slippage" is actually necessary stretch and fire for late adjustment and quick aceleration.

In this case the handle is torqued and the shoulders tiltied so the upper bod resists opening with the hips and controls swing timing and plane.

2 ENTIRELY different ways of establshing connection.

2 entirely different ways of swinging.
 
Aug 1, 2008
2,173
0
ohio
Huh!

I have no idea what you just said.

Please speak were the average person looking for help can read and understand what point you are trying to make. It also helps to keep it short.



No offense, trying to be polite.:)
People that post on baseball 101 and all these other forums, should try to answer questions on hitting that do not include math problems, dedicated time comsuming research to find out what you are trying to say,
engineering terms, physics, and words you have to look up in the dictionary.


It makes my head spin reading it.


My post asks a simple question. a,b,c, or d. After reading your post I still have no idea which one you picked.



Straightleg
 
Jul 14, 2008
1,722
38
Huh!

I have no idea what you just said.

Please speak were the average person looking for help can read and understand what point you are trying to make. It also helps to keep it short.

No offense, trying to be polite.:)
People that post on baseball 101 and all these other forums, should try to answer questions on hitting that do not include math problems, dedicated time comsuming research to find out what you are trying to say,
engineering terms, physics, and words you have to look up in the dictionary.

It makes my head spin reading it.

My post asks a simple question. a,b,c, or d. After reading your post I still have no idea which one you picked.

Straightleg
Good Point!................:D...............:eek:

Trying to get Tom to commit to a simple concept is like trying to get a drunk driver to say the alphebet backwards.........:

zyx..cuelaekjrfuawwdisjhejwsoejrfhwea.......a
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
traightleg-

Sorry, I am a crappy technical writer.

The short answer is C and D, very little resembling C, mostly D. for MLB pattern swing.

The long answer, feel free to ignore:

In the MLB high level pattern this is always the swing sequence I see:

1- rhythmic preswing activity during the dance with the pitcher which prepares the body for the torquing backanf forth acyion of the hands on the handle and the neg/positive weight shift of the lower body to follow

2 - inward turn of whole body without separation which turns body back where it needs to be for squaring ball in some locations such as low/away. weight shifts to back foot with neg move. It is very important to start load/cock of shoulders down/in in front for this swing patern which will later need for the shoulders to UNTILT.

3- hips cock to establish offcenter balance, the upper and lower body synch by simultaneous internal roation of back arm cocking bat and internal rotation of front leg/turning knee in

4-hand cock/positive move - synched aBducton/lift of the back arm and spreading of legs to send body forward as inward turn continues with hip cock allowing carry of weight forward staying balanced. some separation starts as front leg reaches foot out (push/reach as board member says)

5-rubberbandwinding/rotation into toe touch, boardmember prefers Opening front leg/hips vs Rotating as the verb. This can be conscious whatever the ver. This is where the separation/coil really gets going, but there is not much of it (motionanalysis shows less than 15 degrees on average at toe touch.

The timing of coil s synched by simultaneous external rotation of the back arm and front leg starting at the same time. This is what Yeager is talking about when he mentions synching the lower body with the top hand. The lower body will follow the lead of the upper body if you are in the MLB "posture" as described above, particularly the cocking of the hips as a way of carying te body with "offcenter balance/vertical loading.

This is where back arm action is similar beween throwing and hitting preparation.

The synched actions of the back arm and front leg are what control good timing of coil/separation.

There is "CONNECTION" here in terms of the muscles of the torso loading by stretch which involves keeping their tension not just by the separation of lower body/front leg/hip opening as hands stay back and shoulders stay closed, but alos by increasing "sit" lowering the center of gravity and creating a longer bony framework to keep mscles on stretch.

During this time the bat is UNCOCKED and starting it's forward turn in the developing swing plane synched with the hips and front leg opening as the hands stay back/shoulders closed.

6 - next comes the "drop and tilt" resulting from the "GO" decision where the hands control the setting of the maching swing plane demanding support to accelerate the already turning bat with shoulder TILT while at the same time the hips fire/rotate slaved to how the legs have moved and how the weight has shifted and how the shoulders need to laterally tilt.

This torques the handle while the hands stay back,resisiting turning with the hips to create additional coil where the swing timing/trajecory is controlled/adjusted. The shoulders start to get turned as the torso finishes stretching.
The bathead then fires out just as the torso stretch reverses/uncoils/unloads so that the momentum of the body is transferred upward and transformed into bathead speed rather than wasting energy sliding rather than turning the bat ("DRAG") or overrotating the proximal/lower parts of the body ("SPINNING").

So all those things have to happen.

Connection is probably best though of as the coil/uncoil of the torso related to the uncocking,then firing of the bat in this "stretch and fire" pattern.

The sequence of forces/actions related to your multiple choice is that the hands uncock/turn the bat at the SAME time that the front leg, then hips start to open, THEN the shoulders tilt at the same time that the hips fire/rotate, then the shoulders are turned as the torso finishes stretch/load, THEN the bathead fires out enough to demand momentum transfer as the hips decelerate and pass their momentum up the torso.

Good momentum transfer requires a segmented swing, not turning in unison, and the primary arm action is both hands torquing the handle, not lead arm pull or back arm push or active shoulder turning.
 
May 7, 2008
977
0
San Rafael, Ca
This is the latest Boardmember dogma I have seen:

IMO, "Clearing the hips" to fire the ENTIRE swing is much different then actively rotating the hips into foot plant, and sends a completely different message.

"The hips and shoulders BEGIN rotating simultaneously after weighted foot plant and the unloading process begins. As the links pick up energy, things begin to align and eventually pass into contact........."

Making progress with 11yo - Page 2 - Baseball Fever

Unfortunately, using the shoulders to ROTATE at this point in the MLB pattern will cause "rushing" which interrupts the most important last little bit of loading that keeps the hands back and allows them to control a matching swing trajectory.

Stretch and fire is good for the MLB pattern.

It is slop/slippage in the PCR pattern where DRAG is the main challenge.
 
Jul 14, 2008
1,722
38
This is the latest Boardmember dogma I have seen:

"The hips and shoulders BEGIN rotating simultaneously after weighted foot plant and the unloading process begins. As the links pick up energy, things begin to align and eventually pass into contact........."
Yep, that's what I said, that's what I "feel" and that's what video confirms:

You can look at this all you want and tell us the shoulders "aren't rotating" in unison with the hips after plant.....

Epstein would disagree........

 
Aug 1, 2008
2,173
0
ohio
Boardmember

Would you choose one?

I would like to hear what you have to say. You post shows hips and shoulders in unison / what are the arms and hands doing.

a,b,c, or the dreaded d ;)



straightleg
 
Jul 14, 2008
1,722
38
Boardmember

Would you choose one?

I would like to hear what you have to say. You post shows hips and shoulders in unison / what are the arms and hands doing.

a,b,c, or the dreaded d ;)

straightleg
I'd choose Hands.............Was that an option?

Stride........Open........Drive the hands into contact..........

Unfortunately, what you'll find is the shoulders are the vehicle that drive the hands to contact.........Not the hips........

If my hands say "go to the ball", my shoulders are the taxicab that gets them there.

Why the hell else do the shoulders rotate? Just for the hell of it?..........

They are the vehicle that the hands "bump off of" for momentum, like it or not..............

Screw the shoulders and throw the hands to the ball and you have INSTANT disconnection...........
 

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