Still Lost on the infield fly rule

[The Man In Blue]

Really haven't seen a "Correct Answer" since the whole situation is up to the umpire's discretion at the time. Yes, the rule is active anytime the situation is set up to allow it but still isn't actually happening until an umpire makes the call.

The correct answer has been given many times. The infield fly rule is clearly defined as to when it can be applied. Coaches and players NEED to learn this.

When a fly ball can be caught with normal effort, as has been explained, is not something that can be defined. It changes every pitch. Where did the fielder start? What is the fielder's skill level? What is the weather? These are all factors that change the application. If you are asking for a clear answer as to what fly balls it should be applied to, you may as well be asking your pitcher how many strikes and how many balls she is going to throw the next game.

For this reason, back to the black and white part again, application of an infield fly rule is NOT contingent upon the umpire making any verbal or physical signal. The umpire is (in most codes) granted the authority to "set it right." IF (when) an umpire fails to give the signal per proper mechanics, the umpires SHOULD rectify the situation by placing runners where they would have been. HOWEVER, just as you are complaining about the judgment aspect of a potential infield fly rule application, NOW you get my judgment as to what would have happened. And if YOU, as the coach, told her to run ... guess what ... YOU told her to run. You don't get to try to cover up your error with mine. KNOW THE SITUATION COACH.

 

[ArmWhip]

I understand the nuts and bolts of the call but think that it is somewhat unfair to coaches and players because we have to make a judgement call on an umpires judgement call.

This happened to me this summer. Runners on 1st and 2nd; one out; pop up behind the SS. She is going back and is clearly, to me, having trouble tracking the ball. Sure enough it falls in. The ump hasn't said anything and I and my runners are watching the ball and the SS, we don't have the luxury of watching the ump to see if he is going to make a signal. I don't know if he did make any phyical sign, not this matters one bit. So I'm yelling "go" and the runners take off. SS picks up the ball and alertly throws to 3rd where a tag is made. Good play by her. Ump then says it is a double play because he called the infield fly rule and the batter is out. So the coach and runners have to make a decision based on what they think the ump is going to call and hope that they guessed right.

Somehow this doesn't seem fair. Off the top of my head I can't come up with another scenario where players and coaches have to make 'live' decisions based on what they think an ump is going to call.

 

[Big Daddy Michigan]

Somehow this doesn't seem fair. Off the top of my head I can't come up with another scenario where players and coaches have to make 'live' decisions based on what they think an ump is going to call.

You mean like whether or not to swing at a pitch?

 

[Comp]

Or a batter running to first when it's not a d3k situation and the catcher throws to first.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

 

[The Man In Blue]

I understand the nuts and bolts of the call but think that it is somewhat unfair to coaches and players because we have to make a judgement call on an umpires judgement call.

... we don't have the luxury of watching the ump to see if he is going to make a signal. I don't know if he did make any phyical sign ...

Which is my point. How can you complain about not getting a signal AND complain you can't watch for a signal? KNOW THE SITUATION, COACH.

not this matters one bit. So I'm yelling "go" and the runners take off. SS picks up the ball and alertly throws to 3rd where a tag is made. Good play by her. Ump then says it is a double play because he called the infield fly rule and the batter is out. So the coach and runners have to make a decision based on what they think the ump is going to call and hope that they guessed right.

Yelling "go" is your mistake, not the umpire's. The runners will be running at their own peril.

Situation A: Umpire does NOT make a call. Your runners stand still on the bases, knowing it is an infield fly situation. The ball drops, you get a runner (or two) thrown out. You go to the umpire and inquire about an infield fly call.

1. The umpire says "Oh, shoot." Umpire then places your runners back because they did not run. The batter is called out. All is good. OR ...
2. The umpire says "I don't think it was a routine ball, so I am not granting the call." Well ... that sucks and he might have made a bad call.

Situation B: Umpire does NOT make a call. The ball drops and YOU yell at your runners to run. You get a runner (or two) out. You go to the umpire and inquire about an infield fly call.

1. The umpire says "Oh shoot. Yes, the batter is out. But your runners ran when YOU told them to. On an infield fly, they run at their own peril."
2. The umpire says "I don't think it was a routine ball, so I am not granting the call." Well ... that sucks and he might have made a bad call.

So where is your best shot at ammunition? If your runners act accordingly, you have an argument. If you try to react or take advantage of it, that's on you.

That is probably just my opinion and every situation is different.

Somehow this doesn't seem fair. Off the top of my head I can't come up with another scenario where players and coaches have to make 'live' decisions based on what they think an ump is going to call.

Every play where there is potential for an umpire to make a "weak" call or you don't see the call. Double steals, bunts, close play at home, obstructions ... should I go on?

I'm sorry, I don't believe any good coach is coaching based on an umpire's call. A good coach is coaching to play the game and letting the umpires sort out the rest. I would never teach a player to steal a base, watch the ball go into centerfield, and wait for the umpire to tell her she is safe. I would never hold a runner at third saying "Hang on, let's see if Judy was out at first." Sorry, I do not have any sympathy on this claim that the umpire causes you to make mistakes. The umpire may make mistakes. I won't say it doesn't happen. I'm saying coaches try to pawn off the blame much more often than is deserved.

 

[BradyC87]

The correct answer has been given many times. The infield fly rule is clearly defined as to when it can be applied. Coaches and players NEED to learn this.

When a fly ball can be caught with normal effort, as has been explained, is not something that can be defined. It changes every pitch. Where did the fielder start? What is the fielder's skill level? What is the weather? These are all factors that change the application. If you are asking for a clear answer as to what fly balls it should be applied to, you may as well be asking your pitcher how many strikes and how many balls she is going to throw the next game.

For this reason, back to the black and white part again, application of an infield fly rule is NOT contingent upon the umpire making any verbal or physical signal. The umpire is (in most codes) granted the authority to "set it right." IF (when) an umpire fails to give the signal per proper mechanics, the umpires SHOULD rectify the situation by placing runners where they would have been. HOWEVER, just as you are complaining about the judgment aspect of a potential infield fly rule application, NOW you get my judgment as to what would have happened. And if YOU, as the coach, told her to run ... guess what ... YOU told her to run. You don't get to try to cover up your error with mine. KNOW THE SITUATION COACH.

Yes, it is clearly defined as that it is the umpire's discretion on whether a fly ball can be caught with normal effort or not. That is the beginning or end of the rule being applied on the field, not the coach's opinion on the matter.

Again, you can quote the rules all you want but unless the umpire on the field makes the call, it didn't happen. I didn't say that coaches shouldn't know the rules, just that their opinion on when things should be applied means nothing if the umpire disagrees so again it falls to the umpire. They are, after all, the ones that are paid to know the rules and call the game.

 

[radness]

Have you bothered to read the answers on this by actual umpires?

No, it does not have to be signaled or called immediately. It can be enforced after the fact and before another pitch if the umpire missed it.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

AND it may not be inforced as it is a judgement call !

Defense and Offense
***PLAY THE BALL !***

NOT
play the umpire's possible who knows what they may decide
Judgement call.


Somebody had commented earlier in the thread that if it is infield fly situation the coaches should tell the runners to stay on the base. Unfortunately that is a bad decision because where the ball is and
'the Judgment of the Umpire' may conclude it is not an infield fly rule hit. (A coach's judgment has no ruling over the umpires judgment.) It is still an up in the air judgment call.
*The runners need to pay attention to where the ball is and come off the base similar to a fly ball in the outfield. Will it be caught or not.
Because the ball in the air
may turn out to be a base hit!!!

imo this is most important about the rule it is NOT something that the umpire is going to automatically call, and a pop up does not mean its automatically an infield fly rule after the play evolves.

 

[ArmWhip]

Every play where there is potential for an umpire to make a "weak" call or you don't see the call. Double steals, bunts, close play at home, obstructions ... should I go on?

Yes, umpires make weak or incorrect calls all the time. I spent several seasons as an ump and I blew my share of calls, so I accept that. I decided not to continue to ump because I decided that I wasn't very good at it.

But tell me this, what is the problem with the umpire simply calling out "infield fly" or not, depending on his judgement, while the ball is in the air? In the case I cited all the ump had to do was yell out "infield fly the batter is out" and everyone would be clear about his judgement. Is there a problem with this that I'm not seeing? Why keep it a secret until after the play is over?

Let's say that an outfielder makes a diving catch on a line drive, but it's not clear if she caught it or trapped it. And the ump made no call, so the runners (and fielders) had to decide on their own whether or not it was a catch and act accordingly, and then see what the ump called.

 

[ArmWhip]

You mean like whether or not to swing at a pitch?

Clearly not the same situation. Pretty hard for the ump to call ball or strike before the batter has to make a swing decision. With an infield fly the ump can make the call before the fielder catches or drops the ball and the runners (and fielders) doesn't have to guess.

 

[bmakj]

Which is my point. How can you complain about not getting a signal AND complain you can't watch for a signal? KNOW THE SITUATION, COACH.




Yelling "go" is your mistake, not the umpire's. The runners will be running at their own peril.

Situation A: Umpire does NOT make a call. Your runners stand still on the bases, knowing it is an infield fly situation. The ball drops, you get a runner (or two) thrown out. You go to the umpire and inquire about an infield fly call.

1. The umpire says "Oh, shoot." Umpire then places your runners back because they did not run. The batter is called out. All is good. OR ...
2. The umpire says "I don't think it was a routine ball, so I am not granting the call." Well ... that sucks and he might have made a bad call.

Situation B: Umpire does NOT make a call. The ball drops and YOU yell at your runners to run. You get a runner (or two) out. You go to the umpire and inquire about an infield fly call.

1. The umpire says "Oh shoot. Yes, the batter is out. But your runners ran when YOU told them to. On an infield fly, they run at their own peril."
2. The umpire says "I don't think it was a routine ball, so I am not granting the call." Well ... that sucks and he might have made a bad call.

So where is your best shot at ammunition? If your runners act accordingly, you have an argument. If you try to react or take advantage of it, that's on you.

That is probably just my opinion and every situation is different.




Every play where there is potential for an umpire to make a "weak" call or you don't see the call. Double steals, bunts, close play at home, obstructions ... should I go on?

I'm sorry, I don't believe any good coach is coaching based on an umpire's call. A good coach is coaching to play the game and letting the umpires sort out the rest. I would never teach a player to steal a base, watch the ball go into centerfield, and wait for the umpire to tell her she is safe. I would never hold a runner at third saying "Hang on, let's see if Judy was out at first." Sorry, I do not have any sympathy on this claim that the umpire causes you to make mistakes. The umpire may make mistakes. I won't say it doesn't happen. I'm saying coaches try to pawn off the blame much more often than is deserved.

there is a big disconnect between the situation described and what you are saying. In this case, the non verbalization of the infield fly call (which the umpire called after the play was over), puts the runners in jeapordy, because if there is no IF call, then they MUST advance, they are not advancing at their own peril. If in the play described (no call, ball drops to hit ground, runner thrown out at 3B and BR called out), I would probably flip out. by not verbalizing (and a signal is not enough, coaches and BR all should be watching ball in this situation), to me that is not calling it. now if they want to call it after the fact, they should return any BR thrown out (and BR behind them), otherwise it is simply awarding a cheap DP to the defense, which is what the rule is intended to avoid. just because the coach (who remember cannot read the umpires mind as to what is routine) told his runners to run, it is because they believed they were forced to by the ball hitting the ground. Not verbalising it to me is not calling it.