Spin rate

[ArmWhip]

If your spin rate goes up on the FB will speed increase, both 12/6 rotation?

In baseball there has been some research on this, I'm not sure if the results can be extended to softball. In baseball an increase in velocity brings an increase in spin rate. And it's also pretty much accepted that you can't change fastball spin rate, while it varies from player to player a given player has his own limits. If you want to read up on it go here.

Spin Rate: What We Know Now

This article is intended to build a basis of knowledge of what we, at Driveline Baseball, understand about spin rate at this current time. We will

www.drivelinebaseball.com

 

[ArmWhip]

The final step of the IR is the pronation of the forearm. If the forearm doesn't pronate, the speed will decrease.

Isn't this pronation?

 

[sluggers]

Isn't this pronation?

Yep...it is rotation of the forearm. I always enjoy these discussions. Thanks for calling me on it @ArmWhip

Maybe there is a better way to phrase what I'm talking about.

The energy of the ball is proportional to the spin and to the speed of the ball. A well-trained pitcher can only generate 'so much" energy. It's a zero sum game...a pitcher can't increase spin without decreasing speed. And, a pitcher can't increase speed without decreasing spin.

You see this all over the place. In MLB, the curveball (using the MLB definition of a curveball) is 5 to 10 MPH slower than the FB.

Same thing with high level tennis serves. The first serve is a power serve with with little spin. It is the faster serve. Because there is less spin on the ball, it is more difficult to get the ball into the service box. The second serve is usually a spin serve, so the speed of the ball is less but the spin is more, allowing the server to put the ball higher over the net and have it "drop" into the service box due to the top spin. But, the amount of effort to hit the two serves is the same.

The same thing with golf. If you put more spin on the ball to make it "move" on a drive or "sit" on wedge shot, the ball won't go as far. You see this all the time with a duffer (like me) hitting a wedge shot. The duffer is trying to put lots of spin on the ball to stop it from rolling after it hits the green. However, if the duffer mishits and doesn't put the spin on the ball, it goes sailing 50 yards over the green. Both swings use the same amount of energy, but the result is radically different.

Biomechanically, for the cut rise that Sarah is throwing, the fingertips travels on a wide arc. Additionally, full pronation of the arm doesn't occur. That is, the palm never turns over. So, part of the "power of pronation" is used to generate spin rather than speed.

This is a video of Megan Betsa who had one of the best "true backspin" riseballs I've ever seen. You can see how the pronation is cut off (for want of a better word) in order to impart spin.



My own experience is that my DD's maxed out drop ball was about 2 to 3 MPHs slower than her FB. "True riseballs" are about 5MPH slower than a FB.

Of course, this leads into the discussion of the bullet spin riseball (Like Garcia's--where the axis of rotation is tilted) and why they are thrown so much. The bullet spin riseball doesn't rely on spin to move. So, it's possible to thrown the bullet spin rise without a decrease in speed.

The problems with the bullet spin rise is (1) it doesn't seem to get as much movement as a true rise and (2) it is more difficult to reliably throw. (There was a kid who threw a great bullet spin rise, but she could no more do it "on command" than she could jump over the moon. About 50% of the time, it was bullet spin rise and 50% of the time it was a high fastball.)

 

[_MIA_]

Yep...it is rotation of the forearm. I always enjoy these discussions.

Maybe there is a better way to phrase what I'm talking about.

The energy of the ball is proportional to the spin and to the speed of the ball. A well-trained pitcher can only generate 'so much" energy. It's a zero game...a pitcher can't increase spin without decreasing speed. And, a pitcher can't increase speed without decreasing spin.

You see this all over the place. In MLB, the curveball (using the MLB definition of a curveball) is 5 to 10 MPH slower than the FB.

Same thing with high level tennis serves. The first serve is a power serve with with little spin. It is the faster serve. Because there is less spin on the ball, it is more difficult to get the ball into the service box. The second serve is usually a spin serve, so the speed of the ball is less but the spin is more, allowing the server to put the ball higher over the net and have it "drop" into the service box due to the top spin. But, the amount of effort to hit the two serves is the same.

The same thing with golf. If you put more spin on the ball to make it "move" on a drive or "sit" on wedge shot, the ball won't go as far. You see this all the time with a duffer (like me) hitting a wedge shot. The duffer is trying to put lots of spin on the ball to stop it from rolling after it hits the green. However, if the duffer doesn't mishits and doesn't put the spin on the ball, it goes sailing 50 yards over the green. Both swings use the same amount of energy, but the result is radically different.

Biomechanically, for the cut rise that Sarah is throwing, the fingertips travels on a wide arc. Additionally, full pronation of the arm doesn't occur. That is, the palm never turns over. So, part of the "power of pronation" is used to generate spin rather than speed.

This is a video of Megan Betsa who had one of the best "true backspin" riseballs I've ever seen. You can see how the pronation is cut off (for want of a better word) in order to impart spin.



My own experience is that my DD's maxed out drop ball was about 2 to 3 MPHs slower than her FB. "True riseballs" are about 5MPH slower than a FB.

Of course, this leads into the discussion of the bullet spin riseball (Like Garcia's--where the axis of rotation is tilted) and why they are thrown so much. The bullet spin riseball doesn't rely on spin to move. So, it's possible to thrown the bullet spin rise without a decrease in speed.

The problems with the bullet spin rise is (1) it doesn't seem to get as much movement as a true rise and (2) it is more difficult to reliably throw. (There was a kid who threw a great bullet spin rise, but she could no more do it "on command" than she could jump over the moon. About 50% of the time, it was bullet spin rise and 50% of the time it was a fastball.)

Not to be nitpicky but for most (all ?) humans you technically want the riseball to move as little as possible

 

[sluggers]

Not to be nitpicky but for most (all ?) humans you technically want the riseball to move as little as possible

I don't want to open up that can of worms...

 

[_MIA_]

I don't want to open up that can of worms...

I think most people agree that it doesn’t move above the “gravity path…once someone explains to them that this still allows for the ball to be rising as it crosses the plate.

 

[ArmWhip]

I agree with the spin vs speed trade off in golf, tennis and baseball, and how this applies to fingers behind the ball (fastball) vs fingers going around the ball in some form (breaking pitches). But there is something about the release in softball that adds an additional element to this concept. How do we account for the fact that many high level pitchers throw bullet spin fastballs? If you look closely at the Power Drive video with Amanda Scarborough she releases the ball with bullet spin. I assume that this is her fastball and not a deliberate bullet spin pitch.

 

[Lobster Birch]

Are folks big on measuring spin now? Is this measurement considered as important as speed? Are all pitchers now putting spin rate numbers into their skills videos?

 

[Jeffrey]

Are folks big on measuring spin now? Is this measurement considered as important as speed? Are all pitchers now putting spin rate numbers into their skills videos?

Yes - spin axis & rate are both important. Rev it up as fast as you want, but if the axis isn't right the movement won't be there. The camps are now measuring it too.

 

[ArmWhip]

What I'm curious about is RPF's (revolutions per foot). If you have two pitches with identical RPM's but one is thrown at 60mph and the other at 50mph the slower one will have more RPF's, does this mean more break? Or, because it's slower, less break?