Sequence?

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Cannonball

Ex "Expert"
Feb 25, 2009
4,854
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Here is a mandatory thread to read on sequence!

 
Aug 20, 2020
79
18
I think
jamesd1628 is playing possum and know exactly what he is talking about.

Just to clarify, I’m talking about the sequence between launch - the moment the bat actually starts heading toward the ball - and the moment the bat contacts the ball, and maybe a little thereafter.

The point of my original post was that there are things that seem to go against the commonly-held belief in a hitting sequence flowing from the ground up. Hips catching up to shoulders is one of those things.

The general idea that energy or force flows sequentially upward from the ground seems flawed to me. Ground force is nothing more than something stationary to push against. Ground force transfers instantly and fully into any rigid object the moment that object contacts the ground. For example, if a rigid platform sits on the ground, the full platform instantly has the same ground force as the ground itself. If a hitter bats while standing on that platform, it’s no different than hitting on the ground itself.

Similarly, since the human body is more or less rigid, the entire body automatically and instantly contains the ground force - the ability to push against something stationary - as soon as the feet touch the ground. Shoulders can push against the ground force in the hips; head/neck can push against ground force in the shoulders; etc. And those things can happen simultaneously. So, ultimately, I think the idea of sequential action originating from the ground up is flawed.
 
Last edited:
Feb 16, 2015
933
43
South East
Just to clarify, I’m talking about the sequence between launch - the moment the bat actually starts heading toward the ball - and the moment the bat contacts the ball, and maybe a little thereafter.

The point of my original post was that there are things that seem to go against the commonly-held belief in a hitting sequence flowing from the ground up. Hips catching up to shoulders is one of those things.

The general idea that energy or force flows sequentially upward from the ground seems flawed to me. Ground force is nothing more than something stationary to push against. Ground force transfers instantly and fully into any rigid object the moment that object contacts the ground. For example, if a rigid platform sits on the ground, the full platform instantly has the same ground force as the ground itself. If a hitter bats while standing on that platform, it’s no different than hitting on the ground itself.

Similarly, since the human body is more or less rigid, the entire body automatically and instantly contains the ground force - the ability to push against something stationary - as soon as the feet touch the ground. Shoulders can push against the ground force in the hips; head/neck can push against ground force in the shoulders; etc. And those things can happen simultaneously. So, ultimately, I think the idea of sequential action originating from the ground up is flawed.

Some believe that the energy starts from the middle of the body and flows outward into the ground and then back up. Without GFR the body wouldn’t rotate because the body wants to move in a reciprocal fashion......




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

TDS

Mar 11, 2010
2,926
113
Some believe that the energy starts from the middle of the body and flows outward into the ground and then back up. Without GFR the body wouldn’t rotate because the body wants to move in a reciprocal fashion......




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Correct it starts from the middle with the legs leveraged against the ground..

DoMGI9d.gif

XHSjeFP.gif



This is ground up and is opposite of the above. ^^^ IOW's Dak is using the legs/hips to fire first.


3ZhnjeI.gif
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
Just to clarify, I’m talking about the sequence between launch - the moment the bat actually starts heading toward the ball - and the moment the bat contacts the ball, and maybe a little thereafter.

The point of my original post was that there are things that seem to go against the commonly-held belief in a hitting sequence flowing from the ground up. Hips catching up to shoulders is one of those things.

The general idea that energy or force flows sequentially upward from the ground seems flawed to me. Ground force is nothing more than something stationary to push against. Ground force transfers instantly and fully into any rigid object the moment that object contacts the ground. For example, if a rigid platform sits on the ground, the full platform instantly has the same ground force as the ground itself. If a hitter bats while standing on that platform, it’s no different than hitting on the ground itself.

Similarly, since the human body is more or less rigid, the entire body automatically and instantly contains the ground force - the ability to push against something stationary - as soon as the feet touch the ground. Shoulders can push against the ground force in the hips; head/neck can push against ground force in the shoulders; etc. And those things can happen simultaneously. So, ultimately, I think the idea of sequential action originating from the ground up is flawed.

Hi James, I am not saying one thing is right or wrong. I still have somewhat these same questions. I also agree with tour launch definition. I also agree everything launches together and that the shoulders ‘outpace’ the hips. I am still trying to understand and use it to help DD.

If you haven’t already take a look at any of the KVest data. That IMO shows the need for the ‘sequence’ and that the hips then torso then shoulders then hands are the kinetic chain or said differently the ‘sequence’. Not that it was in question but helped me see what things had to start and stop to get an ideal sequence.

I think Five Frame or Boardmember described it as individual blasting caps going off in sequence to creat the swing. But I think it it one blast for launch and successive slowing or stoppages that transfers the energy to the next distal location. All Fire then Hips slow and torso captures that energy. Then torso slows and shoulders take the energy then shoulders slow and the hands take the energy and whip it into the barrel. This is about as close as I can get to describing my feeling on sequence. Now how do I get my DD in the best leveraged position to launch?? Or what muscles launch? How to get that barrel moving behind and through? I know what I have read heard and tried. Now to put them together in the most efficient way is my struggle. I really like how my Dd is progressing just missing a few things like good leverage and the initial separation take out the slack without overbaking it. Ugh. So much to do so little time. Good luck.
 
Aug 20, 2020
79
18
Hi James, I am not saying one thing is right or wrong. I still have somewhat these same questions. I also agree with tour launch definition. I also agree everything launches together and that the shoulders ‘outpace’ the hips. I am still trying to understand and use it to help DD.

If you haven’t already take a look at any of the KVest data. That IMO shows the need for the ‘sequence’ and that the hips then torso then shoulders then hands are the kinetic chain or said differently the ‘sequence’. Not that it was in question but helped me see what things had to start and stop to get an ideal sequence.

I think Five Frame or Boardmember described it as individual blasting caps going off in sequence to creat the swing. But I think it it one blast for launch and successive slowing or stoppages that transfers the energy to the next distal location. All Fire then Hips slow and torso captures that energy. Then torso slows and shoulders take the energy then shoulders slow and the hands take the energy and whip it into the barrel. This is about as close as I can get to describing my feeling on sequence. Now how do I get my DD in the best leveraged position to launch?? Or what muscles launch? How to get that barrel moving behind and through? I know what I have read heard and tried. Now to put them together in the most efficient way is my struggle. I really like how my Dd is progressing just missing a few things like good leverage and the initial separation take out the slack without overbaking it. Ugh. So much to do so little time. Good luck.

I see it like this: Ground force inhabits the entire body. At launch, every body part involved in the swing fires at the same time. Legs fire against the feet; hips fire against the legs; torso/shoulders fire against the hips; arms fire against the shoulders/torso, etc. It all happens at the same time. One segment doesn’t wait for the previous segment to fire and then decelerate. It doesn’t need to because the ground force inhabits the entire body. Sequence is slow. Simultaneous firing is fast.
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
I see it like this: Ground force inhabits the entire body. At launch, every body part involved in the swing fires at the same time. Legs fire against the feet; hips fire against the legs; torso/shoulders fire against the hips; arms fire against the shoulders/torso, etc. It all happens at the same time. One segment doesn’t wait for the previous segment to fire and then decelerate. It doesn’t need to because the ground force inhabits the entire body. Sequence is slow. Simultaneous firing is fast.


I agree with the fact of ground force. As in the JStone video scissoring when he is not connected to the ground. But look at the bottom graph i copied as it shows what happens when everything 'fires' at the same time.

Maybe this is more of a question on which direction body parts are going at time of launch (fire). If hands shoulders and torso are getting 'stretched' backwards, then the hips 'fire', but are 'ahead' of the top(torso,shoulders,hands) at launch, and the 'top' has to 'catch up', then that should be a better more efficient sequence. If everything 'fires' 'forward' at the same time, you get an 'all back-all forward' type swing, which shown by KMotion is inefficient. (see the first graph below where the red hips are 'ahead' and the green blue brown 'top' is moving at relatively the same 'speed'). And @pattar can correct all my physics errors in speech. thanks. speed velocity etc.


Quote from the last link below:
'Think of the kinetic chain as simply transferring energy and speed from the ground up by accelerating and decelerating each segment of the swing, ultimately transferring energy into the barrel of the bat. K-Vest is able to track this transfer of energy by measuring the peak rotational velocities and the manner in which they accelerate and decelerate in order to propel the next segment of the chain forward.'


https://jrod20033.medium.com/kvest-fef23191645c
https://rocklandpeakperformance.com/3-questions-when-analyzing-kinematic-sequence-kvest-baseball/
https://www.drivelinebaseball.com/2018/11/introduction-k-vest/

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Jun 8, 2016
16,118
113
I see it like this: Ground force inhabits the entire body. At launch, every body part involved in the swing fires at the same time. Legs fire against the feet; hips fire against the legs; torso/shoulders fire against the hips; arms fire against the shoulders/torso, etc. It all happens at the same time. One segment doesn’t wait for the previous segment to fire and then decelerate. It doesn’t need to because the ground force inhabits the entire body. Sequence is slow. Simultaneous firing is fast.
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