Runner on 3b and batter walks

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fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
  • If you call LBR someone is out - any other runner would return to previously legally touched base.
  • Yes, the moment the pitcher looks to make a play in any way, LBR is off and base runners are free to do what they like...
  • There is no speed requirement, just a direction. So as long as they remain in motion - no matter what speed - then THAT runner is OK.

    Assuming 'no play', you call a LBR on NO MOVEMENT (i.e. they stopped and didn't make in the umpire's judgment an immediate change of direction) or if they make any SECOND CHANGE OF DIRECTION
Sorry if i am being dumb, what causes an Ump to call LBR?
 

marriard

Not lost - just no idea where I am
Oct 2, 2011
4,312
113
Florida
Sorry if i am being dumb, what causes an Ump to call LBR?

The runner is entitled to proceed directly/continuously to the next base and can change direction ONCE (i.e. return to the previous base).

As an umpire you are looking for:
- Pitcher in circle, with ball, not making a play on any runner and the batter-runner has already touched first base
- Any base runner already in motion is entitled to proceed directly/continuously to the next base and can change direction ONCE (i.e. return to the previous base).

So the above two conditions being met all is good and the Look Back Rule is now in effect; It will be called if either of the below occurs:

- If the batter STOPS going to the next base and doesn't change direction but just stands there; she is out. You see this mostly as a the runner hesitating for a noticeable amount of time.
- If the batter changes direction ONCE she is fine, but if she then CHANGES direction AGAIN she is out. (so jumping back and forwards, or after changing direction to return to the previous base she then changes her mind again and changes direction and starts to go to the next base
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
  • If you call LBR someone is out - any other runner would return to previously legally touched base.
  • Yes, the moment the pitcher looks to make a play in any way, LBR is off and base runners are free to do what they like...
  • There is no speed requirement, just a direction. So as long as they remain in motion - no matter what speed - then THAT runner is OK.

    Assuming 'no play', you call a LBR on NO MOVEMENT (i.e. they stopped and didn't make in the umpire's judgment an immediate change of direction) or if they make any SECOND CHANGE OF DIRECTION

I am going to disagree with that statement ... there is some interpretation and loosely worded bits ... you touch on it in your next post, so I will continue there ...
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
The runner is entitled to proceed directly/continuously to the next base and can change direction ONCE (i.e. return to the previous base).

As an umpire you are looking for:
- Pitcher in circle, with ball, not making a play on any runner and the batter-runner has already touched first base
- Any base runner already in motion is entitled to proceed directly/continuously to the next base and can change direction ONCE (i.e. return to the previous base).

So the above two conditions being met all is good and the Look Back Rule is now in effect; It will be called if either of the below occurs:

- If the batter STOPS going to the next base and doesn't change direction but just stands there; she is out. You see this mostly as a the runner hesitating for a noticeable amount of time.
- If the batter changes direction ONCE she is fine, but if she then CHANGES direction AGAIN she is out. (so jumping back and forwards, or after changing direction to return to the previous base she then changes her mind again and changes direction and starts to go to the next base

This may be a bit of interpretation, but in my opinion and the way I call it, creeping is not an immediate move to get to a base. I will have to quote the exact verbiage later, but that is not "directly/continuously" either. If you are turned sideways looking at the pitcher, you are not proceeding directly or immediately in any direction (even if you are moving slowly). The reason there is not a more specific "time limit" is to avoid instances of the pitcher trying to hurry up and pitch while the runner IS actually returning.

In short, gradual motion is not equivalent to an immediate action.

The other side of the argument is what constitutes "a play". Yes, the rule is called the "Look Back Rule" but looking is not actually a part of it. A pitcher can watch the runner all the way as long as she does not make a physical effort to present the appearance of a play. She can be staring directly at the runner as the umpire rings her up for a violation.
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
Sorry if i am being dumb, what causes an Ump to call LBR?

Not a dumb question at all ... and honestly many umpires struggle with this rule.

My process:

Watch the runner touch first base.
Assess what she is going to do.
Look at runner on third base. Is she moving, is she stationary?
Look at pitcher, assess what she is doing.
Making a play? The race is on.
No play? Look at runner on third ... is she immediately going or returning? No = DEAD BALL, OUT.

That gives the runner on third ample time to make a decision and fulfill her legal obligations.
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
Not a dumb question at all ... and honestly many umpires struggle with this rule.

My process:

Watch the runner touch first base.
Assess what she is going to do.
Look at runner on third base. Is she moving, is she stationary?
Look at pitcher, assess what she is doing.
Making a play? The race is on.
No play? Look at runner on third ... is she immediately going or returning? No = DEAD BALL, OUT.

That gives the runner on third ample time to make a decision and fulfill her legal obligations.
Ok thanks, so there isn't anything stating that the play is continuing just because the BR has rounded 1st and is continuing to 2nd? (i will disregard the fact of slowly creeping to 2nd, and just assume this will be considered still advancing to 2nd.).

Said differently, if in all my next situations BR creeps around 1st to 2nd base, and the R3 is on the base not moving, then no out. If R3 is off 3rd base and not moving or doesn't move immediately, then out. If R3 is off 3rd base and also slowly creeps or moves towards home, then no out.

Assuming that there will be a play to cover the R3 and not allow her home, then all bets are off and it is a live play. Which i think is the point with fast teams that they think they can beat the run down.

When this happened to DD, i cannot remember what R3 was doing, but i think they were standing next to 3rd base not making a move, and with pitcher in the circle, not making a move, should have triggered the rule and R3 should have been out. But if the ump believes that the play is still live because BR is actively moving towards 2nd base, then the rule never gets invoked as it continues to be a live play.

maybe? haha.
 
May 31, 2018
227
43
Allen TX
[QUOTE="The other side of the argument is what constitutes "a play". Yes, the rule is called the "Look Back Rule" but looking is not actually a part of it. A pitcher can watch the runner all the way as long as she does not make a physical effort to present the appearance of a play. She can be staring directly at the runner as the umpire rings her up for a violation.
[/QUOTE]

We had a situation this weekend where a girl stole 2nd on a passed ball, and continued to round 2B. After she rounded she stopped about 4-5 steps towards 3B. By that time our pitcher had the ball and was staring at her with both hands down beside her body. This stare down went on for 5-7 seconds before runner returned to 2B. At no time did my pitcher move her hands up. The other coach was yelling at his player knowing she was out. However, ump said she was not in violation. After the inning, I asked why he did not call LBR, and he said because my pitcher was staring at the runner. When I challenged him on her not making a play or attempt at all, he changed his reasoning and said it was because my pitcher had the ball in her hand and not in her glove.
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
Ok thanks, so there isn't anything stating that the play is continuing just because the BR has rounded 1st and is continuing to 2nd? (i will disregard the fact of slowly creeping to 2nd, and just assume this will be considered still advancing to 2nd.).

Said differently, if in all my next situations BR creeps around 1st to 2nd base, and the R3 is on the base not moving, then no out. If R3 is off 3rd base and not moving or doesn't move immediately, then out. If R3 is off 3rd base and also slowly creeps or moves towards home, then no out.

Assuming that there will be a play to cover the R3 and not allow her home, then all bets are off and it is a live play. Which i think is the point with fast teams that they think they can beat the run down.

When this happened to DD, i cannot remember what R3 was doing, but i think they were standing next to 3rd base not making a move, and with pitcher in the circle, not making a move, should have triggered the rule and R3 should have been out. But if the ump believes that the play is still live because BR is actively moving towards 2nd base, then the rule never gets invoked as it continues to be a live play.

maybe? haha.

One of the key concepts that people (umpires too!) miss is that LBR is NOT an "all or nothing" scenario. The runner on third is NOT protected by the batter-runner continuing to second base. The only thing releasing the runner on third base from her obligations is a play being made on either runner.

If the runner on third is standing still, she should be called out once two things have happened: (1) the pitcher has the ball in the pitcher's circle and is not making a play AND (2) the batter-runner has hit first base. The batter-runner's actions after touching first base do NOT have any impact on the runner on third.

If the batter-runner starts dilly-dallying around between first and second, she is subject to be called out. Runners must move immediately and directly with one opportunity to stop or change direction. Creeping is not "immediate and direct".
 
May 29, 2015
3,731
113
We had a situation this weekend where a girl stole 2nd on a passed ball, and continued to round 2B. After she rounded she stopped about 4-5 steps towards 3B. By that time our pitcher had the ball and was staring at her with both hands down beside her body. This stare down went on for 5-7 seconds before runner returned to 2B. At no time did my pitcher move her hands up. The other coach was yelling at his player knowing she was out. However, ump said she was not in violation. After the inning, I asked why he did not call LBR, and he said because my pitcher was staring at the runner. When I challenged him on her not making a play or attempt at all, he changed his reasoning and said it was because my pitcher had the ball in her hand and not in her glove.

I can only give you one of these ...



Hand, glove, under her arm ... doesn't matter as long as she "has control". Now, when she sets her glove down with the ball in it ... I've told that story. 🙂
 

fanboi22

on the journey
Nov 9, 2015
1,138
83
SE Wisconsin
One of the key concepts that people (umpires too!) miss is that LBR is NOT an "all or nothing" scenario. The runner on third is NOT protected by the batter-runner continuing to second base. The only thing releasing the runner on third base from her obligations is a play being made on either runner.

If the runner on third is standing still, she should be called out once two things have happened: (1) the pitcher has the ball in the pitcher's circle and is not making a play AND (2) the batter-runner has hit first base. The batter-runner's actions after touching first base do NOT have any impact on the runner on third.

If the batter-runner starts dilly-dallying around between first and second, she is subject to be called out. Runners must move immediately and directly with one opportunity to stop or change direction. Creeping is not "immediate and direct".
Perfect, thank you for the reply. I just assume it will happen in a game for us at some point, so just wanted to be clear. So if the runner on 3rd stays put physically on third base they are safe not doing anything. After the BR runner crosses first can the R3 wait a bit until BR creeps halfway and then take off for home? Or has their action of staying on 3rd restricted them from doing anything until the pitcher makes a move for BR going to 2nd?
 

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