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rounding 1st on a walk

Jun 20, 2012
437
18
SoCal
Technically if your umpire knows the rules and the pitcher had the ball in the circle and did not make any attempt on the runner as soon as she heads back to first she is out!

Most umpires now wait for the opposing team to know the rule and ask for a ruling before calling the runner out but there are still some umps that call it immediately because they know the rule and enforce it.

Long story short when a player gets walked and wants to take second because you have a runner on third they better not break stride to second without the pitcher making a motion that she is going to make a play on her.

So the original poster, in your scenario the umpire knew the rule and was correct in calling the runner out if they deemed she circled the bag towards second and the pitcher never made an attempt on her. Once rounding first she is not allowed to return to first without an attempt from the pitcher. (This only pertains to a walk scenario.)
Which organization's rule set are you using? Please provide the rule number, if possible.

I ask because in most, if not all, of the major rule sets discussed on these forums, the batter-runner is allowed to stop once between the bases, and either immediately continue on to the next base or immediately return to 1B. What it sounds like is that an umpire misapplied the rule in a game 3 years ago and you've accepted his/her misapplication of the rule. What you are teaching your players is the safe approach. Your players should never get called out for LBR if they follow your instructions. But you are limiting your team and possibly giving your opposition an advantage.

For the record, I umpire mainly under USA/ASA rules. I don't have a rule book handy, but I can tell you that the LBR is covered extensively in the main body of the rule book, the Rules Supplement section, and in every rules and mechanics clinic I've attended over the years.
 
May 24, 2013
10,634
113
So Cal
If the BR stops at 1B after a BB, and THEN proceeds towards 2B, the runner would be out immediately, if the pitcher had possession of the ball in the circle at the time the BR stopped at 1B. If the BR doesn't stop at 1B, it's as described above by MTR, etc.
 
Jun 6, 2018
141
28
CPEM,

We play in only ASA/USA and high school is ASA/USA rules.

I have seen the rule on a walk enforced numerous times and I successfully appealed a runner that returns to first after a walk at least 15 times over the last 2 years.

(Also, if you see my earlier post it was lifted from the ASA/USA q&a of the rules and it specifically states that a walk situation is different than a hit situation.)

Maybe it is a territory issue but in Chicagoland and when at area nationals in Minnesota and Ohio over the last two years I have seen this interpretation of the rule used.
 
Oct 24, 2010
145
18
n 7.08 (a) (5) Note 2, when the pitcher is in possession of the ball in the circle, all runners off their bases must immediately attempt to advance or retreat. Immediately, is interpreted to mean within a three-second time frame.

Let’s discuss a point that seems to be confusing to many, and it focuses around a batter-runner being awarded a base on balls. The batter-runner cannot be frozen at first base on a base-on-balls by merely returning the ball to the pitcher in the circle. The batter-runner after reaching first base may continue on, without stopping, in an attempt to reach second base. If the runner retreats to first without an attempt by the defense, that runner is out immediately.

9 out of 10 times this is called in high school games, might take a coach asking on the rule but all the umpires know the rule.
The above is the Little League rule. I will quote entirely because the red bolded portion is not in the rule.

7.08 Any runner is out when - (a) 5

(a) Major/Junior/Senior Divisions: the runner fails to keep contact with the base to which the runner is entitled until the ball is released by the pitcher on the delivery.

(b) Minor/Tee Ball: the runner fails to keep in contact with the base which that runner is entitled until the ball has been batted or reaches the batter.

Note 1: If the ball slips from the pitcher's hand before, during, or up to the delivery of a pitch, the ball will remain in play and the runner(s) may advance at their own risk (see 8.07(a) Dropped Ball). When a runner is off a base after a pitch or as a result of a batter completing a turn at bat, and while the pitcher has the ball within the eight (8) foot radius circle, the runner must immediately attempt to advance to the next base or return to the base the runner is entitled.

Note 2: If the pitcher has possession of the ball within the pitcher's circle, and is not making a play (a fake throw is considered a play), runners not in contact with their base must immediately attempt to advance or return to base.

Penalty: The ball is dead. "No pitch" is declared and the runner is out. Eight (8) foot radius circle must be properly marked.

A.R. -- After making a decision, should the runner stop again [my emphasis] without a play being made before reaching the base, he/she shall be called out. The responsibility for the runners to advance or return is removed if the pitcher attempts a play on a runner.

This is Little League's version of the look-back rule. It apparently applies even before the batter-runner has reached first base or has been declared out.
In the approved ruling, it clearly says if the runner stops again, the runner is out, implying the runner gets one stop when the pitcher has the ball in the circle, then must advance or retreat to a base. High school does not use the Little League rule.


[edit for the following:]

A portion what Pigskinguru34 wrote comes from a Little League article. It is misquoted.

"Let’s discuss a point that seems to be confusing to many, and it focuses around a batter-runner being awarded a base on balls. The batter-runner cannot be frozen at first base on a base-on-balls by merely returning the ball to the pitcher in the circle. The batter-runner after reaching first base may continue on, without stopping, in an attempt to reach second base. Said runner may stop in the baseline after rounding first base. At this point, the umpire should begin a three-second count on the runner. If the runner again begins movement to advance or retreat before the count reaches “three” and does not stop again, this is a legal action and should not be penalized. However, if the runner stops a second time, without an attempt by the defense, that runner is out immediately. [...]"​
 
Last edited:

Axe

Jul 7, 2011
449
18
Atlanta
CPEM,

We play in only ASA/USA and high school is ASA/USA rules.

I have seen the rule on a walk enforced numerous times and I successfully appealed a runner that returns to first after a walk at least 15 times over the last 2 years.

(Also, if you see my earlier post it was lifted from the ASA/USA q&a of the rules and it specifically states that a walk situation is different than a hit situation.)

Maybe it is a territory issue but in Chicagoland and when at area nationals in Minnesota and Ohio over the last two years I have seen this interpretation of the rule used.
You are confused about many things including how the look back rule works and even what ruleset you are talking about. According to IHSA.org high schools in Illinois use NFHS rules like the rest of the country, not USA.
 
Jun 6, 2018
141
28
ASA/USA rule 8-7-T and further explained under Rules Supplement #34.

NFHS rule - see ASA/USA rule

Problem comes down to umpires and interpretation - some allow 3 seconds to return and others invoke the no reverse field part of it but all seem to invoke no go to second go to first go back to second.

I am just saying that I have consistently seen over the last 3 ways the rule being instilled like the original poster said his friend had called against them in a game. So that is why the girls are not rounding first to go to 2nd unless we know the other team is not contesting it or we are in a close game and looking to get in a rundown for the runner at 3rd to score.
 
May 24, 2013
10,634
113
So Cal
ASA/USA Rules Supplement 34 F...
"A base on balls or a dropped third strike is treated as a batted ball if the batter-runner continues past first base without stopping or stops only once and then immediately moves one way or the other. However, if the runner steps at first base and then steps off the base after the pitcher has the ball in the circle, the runner is out."

This is pretty clear.
 
Jun 22, 2008
3,382
63
CPEM,

We play in only ASA/USA and high school is ASA/USA rules.

I have seen the rule on a walk enforced numerous times and I successfully appealed a runner that returns to first after a walk at least 15 times over the last 2 years.

(Also, if you see my earlier post it was lifted from the ASA/USA q&a of the rules and it specifically states that a walk situation is different than a hit situation.)

Maybe it is a territory issue but in Chicagoland and when at area nationals in Minnesota and Ohio over the last two years I have seen this interpretation of the rule used.
I have no idea what you think you are reading but much of what you are stating is false. A walked batter has all the same rights as if they had batted the ball. They may round 1st, stop, and then immediately choose to return to 1st or continue on to 2nd. Now there is a difference in if the batter/runner runs through 1st base and then turns left in short right field and starts for 2nd, in that situation they must continue non stop unless the pitcher makes a play on them. If the ball is with the pitcher in the circle when the batter/runner runs through 1st base, if they turn and move back toward 1st base they are committed to 1st and must return directly to 1st. If the ball is not with the pitcher in the circle when they turn around they can still break for 2nd if they choose.
 
Jun 6, 2018
141
28
Comp and others you can ask ASA/USA umps and they will tell you it is an interpretation call and 6 umps in a room can have 6 different interpretations. I am just telling you what I have seen called on a consistent basis and the umps have used as the reason for calling the runner out immediately.
 
May 17, 2012
1,976
63
Problem comes down to umpires and interpretation - some allow 3 seconds to return and others invoke the no reverse field part of it but all seem to invoke no go to second go to first go back to second.

I am just saying that I have consistently seen over the last 3 ways the rule being instilled like the original poster said his friend had called against them in a game. So that is why the girls are not rounding first to go to 2nd unless we know the other team is not contesting it or we are in a close game and looking to get in a rundown for the runner at 3rd to score.
There is no interpretation problem. The rules you are citing (ASA and NFHS) make no reference to 3 seconds or prohibiting the runners from rounding 1B on a walk. The umpires you are playing with are interpreting it wrong if you are actually playing ASA, NFHS, or PGF. You should protest if this is called against you.
 
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