Rotational Hitting

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May 7, 2008
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As a general videoanalysis rule, the amount of movement is less important than the sequence of the movement. A lot of what you ook at has to do with generating and transferring momentum which is more related to when a given part gets to max turning speed. Max turning speed/momentun is not necessarily related to how much the part turns.

Muscle action is also very difficult to see and very variable and feel of muscle action is ever changing.

On the other hand, details of motion and sequencing are important.

I find the best way to make sense of tis is to work at the skeletal/joint action ("kinesiological") for analysis.

So "how much" the front foot opens is not important and will vary with individual style, including how off the plate you like to be.

On the other hand, ANY well sequenced overhand throw or swing should have the upper and lower body synched such that the back elbow and front leg externally rotate at the same time and in the same sequence, leading hip opening, not being pushed open by hips.

These joint action/results can be seen fairly well on video. Another good marker is bat tip motion which is an exaggerration of what hands are doing.

Dealing at the muscle level can be useful in person teaching feel and interpreting cues.

So how open or closed the foot is is not very important, the question is does it open by external rotation of the front leg and how does it synch with back arm.
 
Oct 30, 2009
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That's not what the ULL coach who handles the hitting told me when I asked him about Epstein's claim. He did buy it but he uses no one's system but his own. He's studied everyone but his methods are most definitely his own. Epstein went off half cocked on that one without permission.

I've spoken with him as well and they hit out of the "torque" position every day.
 
Oct 30, 2009
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Wow, that's interesting. Do you mean the "Torque Drill" position?

Thanks for posting this.

That is correct. He also said to think in terms of 1-2-3. Each step over and over and over and over again. But they do add their "own" specifics/drills to the swing.
 
Dec 12, 2009
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Are You Guys Serious?

I have worked with the Epstein Hitting System now since 2004 with my college baseball team and have instructed both baseball and fast pitch players who have found huge success. As a certified EHS instructor I can say that the tilt is stressed throughout the course and at no time does the training stress keeping the weight on the backside throughout the swing. In fact the linear portion of the swing is taught to reset the balance point by getting up on the ball of the front foot. At this moment of transfer the weight is not on the backside and does not move to the backside until the front heel drops. I would say that you might want to refresh yourself at an Epstein sponsored camp to find what is really being taught.
 
Oct 29, 2008
166
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I have worked with the Epstein Hitting System now since 2004 with my college baseball team and have instructed both baseball and fast pitch players who have found huge success. As a certified EHS instructor I can say that the tilt is stressed throughout the course and at no time does the training stress keeping the weight on the backside throughout the swing. In fact the linear portion of the swing is taught to reset the balance point by getting up on the ball of the front foot. At this moment of transfer the weight is not on the backside and does not move to the backside until the front heel drops.

Bulldog1:

I may be mis-reading your quote and / or your intent, but if weight is moving to the BACK foot at the time the front heel drops, that is extremely unconventional instruction. I'll assume you meant the weight / mass is moving to the FRONT foot as the front heel drops. It obviously gets there well before contact, since almost all elite hitters have the rear foot off the ground, dragging forward towards the pitcher, or at the least, up on the toes (ballet-like) from well before contact until after contact.


Assuming I am correctly interpreting your intention with your comments, it sounds as if Mike is evolving, and that is great. Seriously, good for him. The sign of a sincere and dedicated instructor.

Many people were first exposed to Epstein's materials close to a decade ago, and in those materials (Do We Teach What We Really See? for example), there is definitely an emphasis on weight remaining over the rear thigh. When people cite his emphasis here, they AREN'T making it up. They MAY not be privy to the latest materials, and again, if Mike his changing his points of emphasis, fantastic. But I believe their references are consistent with the extant Epstein material.

I do also have the On Target - Softball series, which is 3-4 years old. In that series, in the INTRODUCTION to Volume I (Torque drill), just before the Williams endorsement, there is a BULLET SLIDE (printed material) which says the "body tilts backwards [towards catcher] as the rear knee hinges." I think most observers would conclude there is NO point in the rear knee hinging unless there is weight on it - without weight, that hinge would do nothing. In my experience, it is VERY hard to get the weight forward AFTER the upper body is leaning back to the catcher, and the rear knee is hinged with weight still on that rear leg. Maybe others can do it, but I can't. At least not in the 0.1 seconds available.

In the early days of Epstein's support forum - don't know if these questions are still on there - Mike got questions on why MLB hitters often made contact while their rear foot was essentially weightless. This was not a real-time forum, he selected the questions to answer, and then published them. As I recall, there were at least two questions on this very subject. He answered that the phenomenon only happened against very high pitches. Obviously, this isn't factual, and he made a mistake (no sin in that). But the fact that he answered as he did is indicative of the fact that at THAT time, he still felt there should be an emphasis on keeping weight back in a way that would preclude that rear foot from ever coming off the ground, or at least becoming unweighted..

Really, his early premise was that lunging was a huge problem, and keeping the weight back was one of the most fundamental things in the swing. I don't think that is wrong, actually. But in attempting to keep the UPPER body back, you have to be careful not to prevent the lower body from creating momentum into rotation. I can't imagine Mike would disagree with that. I DO think his early materials failed to account for it though.


At the LEAST, Mike meant something different in these materials than was interpreted by many viewers. Entirely possible. Also possible he just hadn't figured some things out yet. Regardless, there are many, many people who interpreted these materials differently than you are interpreting whatever are his current materials. Not saying there is "safety in numbers" or positing that this "proves" anything. Other than perhaps proving that people who have the above-stated beliefs about his materials are NOT making it up, and aren't malicious. They merely interpreted his early materials in the same way as did many others.


And I think it's great he is changing emphasis a little, if in fact that is the case. He is an extremely nice guy (I have spoken with him 3-4 times, and really valued the experience). Very sincere and passionate. I like him a lot. And like him even more if he is growing and modifying his earlier materials. The sign of a great instructor. I also never hesitate to recommend his book on The Mental Side of Hitting - fantastic material. And BTW, Jake is equally nice and impassioned. They are great guys, for sure.


This also points out a problem for any hitting guru. Once he publishes, it is hard to modify stuff without feeling angst about the earlier materials and the people using them. Candrea has had the same problem. Some of the early materials - whew. NOT at ALL like the RVP stuff. It's a fine line to walk for sure. Publishing materials has benefit to many. But it can also lock you into positions that you may later need / want to modify. That is especially true if readers are malicious in their interpretation, and want to limit the credibility of the instructor. In this case, I DON'T believe that is happening. I think Epstein is being represented fairly here, based on his extant published materials. If the material has changed, it would be helpful for everyone to be exposed to the newer materials, and I hope you'll provide some reference.


I would say that you might want to refresh yourself at an Epstein sponsored camp to find what is really being taught.

I think calling people out to look at his instrutor materials is reasonable if they are commercially available. Going to a camp is a possibility, but I think it fair that most people would assume his ppublished materials reflect his beliefs accurately. If the requirement before commenting is to participate in Epstein Instructor Certification (is it still held in the basement of his house?), or to attend a sporadically scheduled clinic, I think that is a little unfair. There are something like 60,000 Epstein tapes and DVDs out there, and few have had the opportunity to attend his Instructor Certification or his camps. (Although a guy I was partnered with as instructos DID attend 4-5 years ago, filmed basically all of it - with Mike's permission - and I have seen the video.)


Glad you are having success with the materials. A lot of us on this thread work with lots of college FP hitters, and it is amazingly gratifying to come alongside a kid and see her succeed at that level.

Best regards,

Scott
 

Hitter

Banned
Dec 6, 2009
653
0
Try to sit in a chair and articulate your foot left to right and left you may find it does not rotate too far. Where is the knee cap positioned? Unless you actually moved your leg inside the hip and noticed, where the knee cap actually is and that is it rotated inside the hip socket. So why would you use the foot as as a position of orientation? Would not the knee cap be more of a point of direction verses the foot? The knee cap is more of a position than the foot in my opinion. You can open the foot however where is the knee cap?

Try it your self.... keep the front foot so the edge of the foot is basically turned to the pitcher and hold the hitters shoulders and ask them to rotate as if they were hitting and you will find holding their shoulders is difficult from turning. Now have them turn their foot more towards the pitcher and try to hold their shoulders and see what happens? Yes they will feel the the lead hip has no leverage! see it , feel it and fix it! Find how far the KNEE should open and not the foot as a point of reference!

Howard
 
May 20, 2008
49
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Lead Foot

Howard,
I tried this with my two daughters first lead knee and foot in a closed position and then lead knee and foot slightly open big difference when the front knee and foot are closed much tougher to hold back the shoulders when rotating. This was very simple to do and very easy to see the difference. I think the old adage of kiss applies here, keep it simple stupid.
Thanks Howard for your insight.

Ed
 

Hitter

Banned
Dec 6, 2009
653
0
Howard,
I tried this with my two daughters first lead knee and foot in a closed position and then lead knee and foot slightly open big difference when the front knee and foot are closed much tougher to hold back the shoulders when rotating. This was very simple to do and very easy to see the difference. I think the old adage of kiss applies here, keep it simple stupid.
Thanks Howard for your insight.

Ed

Thanks ED!

We know too closed does not work and too open does not work either , so finding what feels right for the hitter is important. We have them stop after their swing and ask them how did that feel? Then we put a chalk mark on the floor at the angle they feel good at. Prior to their swing we mark the area around each foot and find over time they tend too get wider and develop more power and they do it on their own by feeling it. See it, feel it and fix it!

Once they feel what works they take the knob of the bat and lay it down between their feet and find something on the graphics of the bat and use it as a reference to assure nothing changes unless they want it too. Some times when the front side opens too far and the sound of the bat is obviously different we say look at your feet and the marks on the floor...what did you feel?

Thanks for the feed back.

Howard
 

N0x

May 1, 2013
1
0
I accept the statement that it's critical to to examine at how hitting swing correlates to other skills, namely overarm sidearm throw and golf.
However, the complexity and confusion and details in golf are much more difficult and complex than hitting, if you ask me.
 
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